Hey everyone--
Mackenzie is doing great. She is playing Webkinz while we are blogging, so she should be entertained the entire hour. I am hoping that this will be more like a discussion on what you have read thus far, as opposed to a question and answer session. I want to discuss both "With the Samanas" and "Govinda". Please feel free to ask questions as we go along. Hopefully we will have a relatively enlighening :) discussion.
I will posting in the comment box.
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At the beginning of "With the Samanas", Siddhartha readily gives up everything (clothes, food, breath). His single goal is "to become empty". Do you feel this is the only way he can attain his goal of ultimate understanding?
ReplyDeleteI think Siddhartha realizes that this isn't the only way he can reach enlightenment. Actually, he discovers that this will not lead him to a level of enlightenment that he desires. He was never able to break away from his "Self" so he tries to go about it in other methods.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the way he will finally attain his goal of ultimate understanding is by giving up everything. However, just as Siddhartha realized towards the end of chapter 2, he will never be able to attain this if he stays with the Samanas. I think Siddartha will always be thirsty for knowledge and that the Samanas, just as his life was at home, was holding him back from his own enlightenment. I feel that he will only ever become empty by being alone.
ReplyDeleteYes, In martial arts, a very traditional view and proper way to meditate they always to lose one's mind in order to free it. In other words, do not have a single thought in your mind to control it. It apparently works to achieve all sorts of understanding in martial arts and in the environment.
ReplyDeleteI believe that "becoming empty" is the first step for Siddhartha to achieve enlightenment. While he says that it is not enough to achieve nirvana, he learned valuable lessons from the Samanas.
ReplyDelete@Brian, so in your life, so ever feel like you've learned enough from your "Samanas"? Your teachers, and that you are ready to move on?
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that the Samanas were questiong was whether or not Gotama was a real buddha. Do you think he is a true buddha? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteI think it’s a great concept. Allot of the time people in modern-day run into a similar situation. Once you hit rock bottom you can only go up. In becoming completely empty he can look at the bigger picture of things. With no possessions or anything he doesn’t relate to anything there for he can take as many steps back as he would like.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that it is the only way, but I think during Siddartha's time it was the only way that was taught. Obviously it did not work for him so he decided to go about acheiving enlightenment in a different way.
ReplyDeleteI understand why Siddartha feels the need to become empty, rid himself of his life before (which also could be considered empty). Once he has attained this blank slate, he can fill himself with "enlightenment". But I don't think he realizes how much knowledge comes from knowing yourself, how much that helps you understand. It takes his experience with the "Bhuda" to realize that he can know and be himself and attain "enlightenment"
ReplyDelete@Megan--do you think it is possible to become empty. How can you possibly empty your mind from thoughts.
ReplyDeleteSo we seem to agree that he must become empty or lose himself, but he was unable to do so with the Samanas. How is it possible for this to happen then? What is Siddhartha's next step?
ReplyDeleteI believe it is going to be one of the steps he has to take in order to attain his goal of ultimate understanding. He feels that he has to become empty so that he can obtain enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is why is reaching that level of ultimate understanding so important to him? Sure he will know all, but is giving up everything to know all really going to make his life worth living? What is it about living in emptiness that would make his life great?
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if the fact that Siddartha continues to try and find a new way to succeed ultimate understanding makes him closer to success than those who stay with one teacher even though he is constantly "starting over"? I think so because he might take longer to achieve it but it will be more legitimate when he does achieve it.
ReplyDeleteI think that at the beginning of the novel, Siddhartha believes that this is the only way to become enlightened. However as time goes on, he begins to realize that this is not the way he wants to be enlightened.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not think that this is the only way to achieve his goal.I think that he must follow many different people and learn from their experiences so that he better understands what he is getting himself into.
ReplyDelete@Erik-I find you comment interesting. Almost like when people go to rehab, they feel as though they get a fresh start and get to start with a clean slate in a sense.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brian. I think that Siddhartha is closer to satisfying his thirst, but in a way he will never attain his thirst. I think he is hungry for something that will never quite be satisfied, yet he will spend his entire life trying to reach it. I think part of him may realize this, and that is why he asks Govinda to go off on his own. Yet, in a sense, he is envious of the fact that Govinda may achieve nirvana before he does or ever will.
ReplyDeleteBy the end of the chapter, Siddartha thoroughly believes that he has learned all he can from the Samanas. But he has learned that what he wishes to achive is not another level of learning but knowledge. A knowledge that is in every person and thing. A knowledge that is just known rather than learned.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is the way he has been taught to attain his goal of ultimate understanding. It depends on the culture. This is the way that the Samanas were taught, and he didn't know of any other way. I think when he joined them he realized that this was not the way to attain his goal. He wanted to learn more than the Samanas knew, because he realized that even the oldest Samana didn't know as much as Siddhartha wanted to know. He then realizes he has to stray away from what he has known and who he has always known to be the ones with the most knowledge. He has to find a new path, and that is for him to find.
ReplyDeleteSo, I don't think this is the only way for him to attain his goal. He will eventually find his own way of discovering enlightenment.
Moritz, sometimes I do feel like I've learned enough from my teachers and parents and that I am ready to move on. In fact, I feel teachers today encourage me to discover and learn things on my own. A lot of times I find that if I am struggling with something or I have strong interest in something, I will always try to discover more myself first. I think that a majority of true learning happens when you are on your own and have to discover things through your own mistakes and successes.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think of Govinda leaving Siddhartha? Is it a betrayal or are they just growing apart? Does Siddhartha truly believe he can find enlightenment by following Gotama?
ReplyDelete@Moritz- yes i think we have hit a point in our lives right now where our "samanas" are not enough. we are moving on to college with different teachers and new experiences.
ReplyDelete@Courtney--so do you think that in order for you to live life to it's fullest, you need to experience all there is in life to experience?
ReplyDeleteI think that Siddharthas goal is not to rid his mind of thoughts but of desires. That being said, I am not sure that it is possible to rid yourself of desires. For instance, Siddhartha's attempt to conquer the self is motivated by his [i]desire[/i] to attain enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteI think that being alone would help him attain enlightenment because I feel that enlightenment is a very personal thing. One way might work for one person and not another. So far he has not found a way that works for him so being alone could spark an idea. But he claims he is thirsty for knowledge yet he is trying to be empty so wouldnt he need to empty him self of his knowledge?
ReplyDelete@Kristen
ReplyDeletemaybe his next step is more than just losing ones mind but having compassion while attaining it, like Hindus and Jainists, both hold things (plants, living creatures, etc.) as very sacred, and believe it is a way to attain Moksha in their views. So just more than himself to 'think' about.
I don't think becoming completly empty would help Siddhartha reach his ultimate goal of Nirvana. I do believe that it's the first step, and he is heading in the right direction, but I still believe that he has alot to learn. I think just by fasting and giving up everything won't give him his ultimate goal that he is reaching for. Reaching Nirvana must have alot more too it then just what he is doing.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of giving up everything to attain understanding is defiantly a stereotype of Buddhism and although I do not believe in sacrifice to attain knowledge or understanding. It is a common practice and there for it must be effective up to certain point.
ReplyDelete@Kristen--I think Siddhartha tells Govinda he is leaving and Govinda chooses not to follow him anymore. Govinda may finally be searching for his own path to follow.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Courtney will his life really be more satisfactory if he knows all as apposed to just living. If you waste your life is it really worth it?
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Trent W. said, I don't think that there is a way that Siddhartha will ever achieve ultimate understanding because I don't think that anyone can have not a single thought in their mind. Even trying to not have any thoughts in his head, he's thinking about it. I just don't think that anyone can fully free their mind.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Chels. I think that Siddartha's thirst might be too much to quench, and I don't know if he'll ever reach the understanding he is trying to. I also agree that the fact that Govinda has found his place might affect weather or not Siddartha does.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sabrina. I think that in a sense this process of trying to attain nirvana is impossible. There will always be something more he could rid himself from or change or whatever, so if that is the case the end goal of nirvana would be impossible to reach, which is the realization Siddhartha is coming to.
ReplyDeleteCourtneyQ-
ReplyDeleteI think that Siddhartha wants to achieve ultimate understanding, not because he wishes to know everything, but to say that he did something with his life.
I think Govinda leaving Siddartha is the first time in the last two books we have read where the sidekick does something for himself. He goes away from the main character in order to pursue what he wants in life. However, Govinda is now faced with the choice to choose who he worships more (because it really is worship in his case) Siddartha or Gotama.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Govinda will appear later on?
In the chapter, "With The Samanas", this first few pages discuss Siddartha's goals on his journey with the Samanas. "...To experience the peace of an emptied heart." Wouldn't learning with a full heart make every experience more important and effect him with more impact? In the begining of the chapter it also says Siddhartha wants to lose his thirst, to let the Self die. But wouldn't his thirst help drive him? I understanding letting his personality fade will let him have no bias. But losing his want for knowledge won't help in gain anything.
ReplyDeleteI agree with CourtneyQ. I don't understand how going though life being miserable is better that actually enjoying life and what it has to offer. I understand it is an important part of Buddism to attain enlightenment but I don't believe you have to make your life as miserable as possible to do this.
ReplyDeleteI think that part of sidhartha discovering himself will include him owning nothing. but i think this means he needs to leave govinda- which he does anyways- otherwise he really is never alone. part of him being a somana is giving up everything, govinda is a huge part of him. I think that once sidhartha loses everything in him, he can truly find himself, and build himself back up
ReplyDelete@mmortiz-I personally don't believe that it is possible to have an empty mind, but I think there is a difference between consious thought and a "clear" mind.
ReplyDeleteI think giving up everything was the worst way to attain ultimate understanding. Wouldn't more knowledge be the key to a better understanding of life? I think there is a correlation between physically becoming empty and mentally becoming understanding.
ReplyDeleteI think we all try to achieve our own enlightenment by listening to the advice of others. Siddhartha was taking the paths that others had set forth for him but they never really clicked for him. I think he will try many ways of reaching enlightenment but in the end the method that will work best for him will be the route that he personally makes for himself. We are our best teachers. Many people give use guiding tools and help us through experiences but we ultimately make that lasting difference on ourselves.
ReplyDeleteOk- I realize that this is a random, stupid, nerdy comment, but did anyone think of Star Wars when Sidartha was all like "You have to let me go see the Bhuda" to his masters? All I could think of was "These are not the droids you're looking for". I thought it was funny how similar the descriptions were, maybe we can connect the Jedi and the Samanas? Nerd-out done, feel free to make fun of me now, it was all I could think of to comment on.
ReplyDeleteTony, that is a very interesting point. Maybe the thing that will give Siddhartha enlightenment is when he can finally give up his desire to learn more. Maybe this will come about by him actually learning all there is to know and therefore would have no desire to learn anything else. I agree, I think at this point he is able to give up all of his other desires except his unquenchable thirst for knowledge.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brian. For instance many of my teachers are encouraging us to watch the nightly news, go on ride alongs with a police officer, and think about how we use these subjects in school that we find pointless in every day life. If there is something that I love, I will seek out more information about it on my own. Sometimes I feel that I know enough, but other times I'm completely lost and feel hopeless.
ReplyDelete@Brian
ReplyDeleteI Agree. Last year my teachers were all still teaching me important things that will help me through the future but this year it’s different. They try to get us out of our comfort zones and to try something different.
Zoe, I think that Siddartha won't feel like he wasted his life if he never achieves what he hopes because aleast he'll try dying instead of wondering if he would have been successful if he had tried.
ReplyDelete@Trent-This could be true, but do you think he has reached a point where he feels comfortable sharing his knowledge with others? I think Siddhartha does not have enough confidence in his own wisdom to begin preaching others. His journey is not complete. I find it equivalent to myself teaching others about physics, even though I have only scratched the surface of all things "physics". Do you think Siddhartha will reach a point where he feels comfortable reaching out to others?
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with the fact that it is possible to completely empty your mind. I also don't think that it is necessary to completely empty your mind to achieve enlightenment. I think that a person is able to control what his or her thoughts are. If a person can empty their mind of all negative thoughts, and thoughts pertaining to evil, then they have achieved their own form of enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteTo Kristen's question
ReplyDeleteI really appreciated the fact that Govinda left Siddartha. I think that Govinda probably wanted to find enlightenment and loose his self as well, but I don't think he had much self to loose. He had always been some what of a slave to Siddartha which I think caused him to have very little self, and very much of Siddartha in him. Now that he has left Siddartha he has a fair chance of acheiving enlightenment.
I don't really know how someone would reach Nirvana. There is no set path or direction you have to take in order to reach it. It's really just finding it on your own. Thererore, the experience is going to be different for everyone. I feel like everyone has to learn a different lesson in order to reach their highest level. That is different for all of us. So how would one truly define Nirvana?
ReplyDeleteI actually think Siddhartha abandons Govinda. I believe that Govinda pledges his allegiance to Gotama under the assumption that Siddhartha will as well. Had he know Siddhartha would leave I think he would have acted differently.
ReplyDeleteI think that is one way for Siddhartha to gain understanding. To me becomeing empty means in a way to lose yourself. For me its like getting read of your phyiscal things and becomeing closer to nature and just living off of what you need. By him doing that I think he becomes stronger as a person and he is able to learn more then what he could if he didn't make himself suffer by fasting.
ReplyDeleteWell, his ultimate goal is nirvana to be like....how to explain it...where one is with the universe in some sort of spiritual state connected with the physical world. So, if reincarnation still is a belief to attain that, then his goal maybe reachable...and also if there is an afterlife, if not, it maybe impossible.
ReplyDelete@Katie--you make me laugh.
ReplyDelete@Colton--just you wait, Siddhartha will try EVERYTHING to see if it will lead his way to enlightenment.
@ Brian and Tony
ReplyDeleteIn the 2nd chapter, Siddartha gave up everything except for his desire for knowledge but even though he was able to do this, he was unable to reach enlightenment. So he incapable of remaining in that lifestyle and thus leaves because he finds it impossible to stay with people who have nothing left to teach him.
Another thought, bouncing off Moritz, do you agree with Govinda's decision to separate from Siddhartha. Is fierce loyalty more important than finding your own way? What do you value more?
ReplyDeleteHannah, I agree with that. I suppose if I spent my life in search of something bigger than myself, I would do anything for it.
ReplyDelete@mmortiz—I think in order to live life to the fullest you have to put a smile on your face and jump into life with a positive outlook. I feel Siddhartha is just looking at life in the first level of knowledge and enlightenment. In order to get the most from life you have to dig deep and feel happiness and joy but pain and hatred. Life isn’t about knowledge and understanding but who and what you effect in the world.
ReplyDeleteI value loyalty, but if it holds an individual back from attaining personal goals, it is too extreme. In this case, I think Govinda made the right decision.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Rachel said. I think people all want something different in life. What they want may be similar, such as the Samanas, but everyone has to take their own path that they believe is the correct path to take. People may agree on paths, such as the Samanas, but ultimately people just need to find what they believe is the correct way to attain enlightenment. There is no right or wrong.
ReplyDelete@ Kirsten
ReplyDeleteI think that maybe if you teach it, even at a basic level to those who need it or want it, if you understand it a bit better can strengthen your own knowledge in those basics before you can move on. You say what I am saying....if it makes sense?
@Courtney--Lovely
ReplyDeleteI think that what he does is right and is one of the only ways to gain this. I think that to truly find out who you really are is to give up what isn't truly yourself. He will become empty by giving up these things, but then after that he will need to gain things that are helping him acheive his goal of becoming pure. He can't live without food and water, so he should eat healthy things that will make him feel better about himself. By doing that he will truly understand what he likes and what he doesn't like. Siddhartha will reach enlightenment by doing this.
ReplyDeleteRachel, I agree with your idea that there is a different path for every person to reach nirvana. I think one of the best examples of this actually occurs in the story. Though Govinda and Siddhartha are best friends and Govinda is extremely loyal to Siddhartha, both men realize that their paths are different. For Govinda, it is to follow the Buddha. For Siddhartha, it is to journey on his own. The paths to "nirvana" are clearly different because they can separate even the best of friends.
ReplyDeleteI think it was good of Govinda to finally seperate from Siddhartha. He needed to go in his own direction and make his own life and not follow others. Yes, Govinda was very loyal and close to Siddhartha, but Siddhartha understood that one day this would happen. Govinda can't be a follower forever. I believe that Govinda has shown his commitment and friendship to Siddhartha for many years, but now it's his turn to find his own meaning and life and go through his own journey.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tony. I think that Govinda would never really leave Siddhartha. I think that Govinda thought that Siddhartha was going to pledge himself to Gotama, and so Govinda himself did too. Then Siddhartha changed his mind and left Govinda. Based on Govinda's actions in the first chapter, I don't think that he would willing leave Siddhartha, especially after all they have been through.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Siddartha will end up following the path of the Epic Hero as Rama and Gilgamesh did? How has he followed this path already? What do you think will be different in Siddartha's journey to enlightenment?
ReplyDelete@moritz whats crackin mr$ mortizz!
ReplyDelete@topic i believe that meditation is a great way to clear your mind and start over. If he wants to reach enlightenment this will help.
To mrs. mortiz's question to megan, i do think it is possible to clear your mind of everything. sometimes it happens when you sleep, you wake up and feel as if you just fell asleep when in reality your mind has just been blank for hours. i'm sure some people can reach this state when they want to
@mackenzie:webkinz is awesome
if he is trying to get rid of all of his "wants" then he must also give up his want for knowledge and his want for enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is good for both Siddartha and Govinda to be separate from each other on their quest for a better understanding. I think that is about inner discovery and I think that competition or distraction could affect their journeys and conflict with them trying to achieve nirvana.
ReplyDeleteLet's move on--
ReplyDeleteHow is it possible that Siddhartha knew Gotama, just by looking at him?
I think that one you can still be loyal while finding your way, and I think that is what Govinda did. He may not be physically loyal to Siddartha anymore, but I think he, and Siddartha know that his heart lies with Siddartha. With that said, I think it is more important to find your own way. I dont' think you should betray the people close to you in order to do that, but if it means straying a little bit I think it is perfectly acceptable.
ReplyDeleteKristen, I dont think that he will ever feel comfortable enough to teach others. I feel that he is too humble and wouldnt want that attention- or maybe he shouldnt want that attention because that would diminish the point of reaching Nirvana and being free of oneself. When the Buddha character was introduced I couldnt help feeling like he was a fraud because he seemed almost full of himself and I dont believe that is what Nirvana is about.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the steps that he he needs to do to achieve his ultimate goal of complete understandment. Reaching Nervana is something that can be held in the eye of the beholder.
ReplyDeleteDo you think its possible for both Govinda and Siddhartha to reach enlightenment, though they are taking different paths? Or is there only one way to reach this?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Connor. As everyone knows, our minds have the abilities to do whatever they want. It is nearly impossible to control your thoughts with everything going on in life. I don't think putting yourself in pain will help control your mind either. I also agree that everybody has their own views on "enlightenment". I'm sure all the Samanas do not have the same exact view on enlightenment
ReplyDeleteGoing on with the friendship of Govinda; I believe you can't really follow a person's precise footsteps to the death. People ultimately have to make their own choice in their beliefs, it's rather foolish, I think, to not think for yourself and decide which you believe. So I think the separation was necessary for both to find what they've been searching for. Ultimately, is that what the book is about?
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Courtney. Everyone chooses to live their life in a different way, whether that is an optimistic view, pessimistic view, whatever. So if Siddhartha and Govinda choose to live their lives trying to rid themselves of everything, and they believe that they need to suffer and experience pain, then that is just their opinion and outlook on life. I think it is especially hard for us to read this book because we cannot even fathom putting ourselves through the things that they are going through. The self discipline and mutilation and just unmaterialistic nature of those two is completely outrageous to all of us. We need to open our minds and take in the concept of what Govinda and Siddhartha are trying to accomplish.
ReplyDelete@kristen's question-I agree with what tony said earlier about Govinda commiting to Gotama under the impression that Siddartha would do the same, however, I think that Govinda's worshipping of Siddartha could hinder his desire to achieve nirvana. That didn't really answer your question, but in this instance, Siddartha's whole goal to achieve nirvana...he isn't encountering enemies in which he would need Govinda's assistance. If Govinda's loyalty is hindering his achieving nirvana, then I think the right thing of Govinda to do is to let Siddartha embark on his own journey
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Meg said because everybody has a different mindset and perspective on life. There are different things for everyone that make them and and that don't make them happy. I think that to truly be happy, you have to follow your own path and do what makes you happy. Also it has to be what you and society thinks is right. I think that is ultimately what siddhartha is trying to acheive.
ReplyDelete@moritz
ReplyDeleteIt's the same with people in the same field of business. Writers recognize other writers. Teachers other teachers. Business people other business people. You have seen enough of what you want and been around it long enough to realize what makes a person who is looking or has achieved enlightenment.
@mortiz
ReplyDeleteCould it be similar to Rama where they knew eachother in a past "Life"? Just a guess
Kristen, I definitely think there is more than one away to achieve enlightenment. I believe it is possible for both Govinda and Siddartha to reach enlightenment.
ReplyDelete@moritz In order for the reader to believe that Siddhartha truly recognized Gotama at first sight, there must be some foundation or belief in multiple cycles in life and perhaps, fate. There are certain moments where you can feel your life changing, and I believe this was a defining factor in Siddhartha's life.
ReplyDeleteLike Siddartha said in the book, Gotama had a certain air about him. Siddartha mentioned that no one walked like him, or smiled like him therefore he was extremely recognizable. I also think that maybe since Siddartha is well on his way to acheiving enlightenment he has an idea of what a Buddha should look like. Since Siddartha has the capability and fate of becoming a Buddha, he can recognize one when he sees Gotama.
ReplyDelete@Chelsea
ReplyDeleteYou said " I think it is especially hard for us to read this book because we cannot even fathom putting ourselves through the things that they are going through. " Of course you cannot imagine the ideas presented in the book; however, don't you think you are on somewhat of the same journey to figure out who you are and what you want to be for the world?
@@@@$@@@cbeck pain will not help control your mind, because pain is something that we cannot control. If your leg hurts, then you have to live through it you cannot just stop it from hurting with your mind. I also agree about the differing view on "enlightnment". not everybody can think the same way
ReplyDeleteWhen sedartha was torchering himself and he had the thought that this was not the right path to reaching enlightenment and he wanted to go back to his normal way of living i could help but think of Enkiduj when he was facing death wanted his original inocent life back. So here is my question, if sadartha continues to do things that waver from his original self, do u think his dimise will soon fallow like it did with enkidu?
ReplyDeleteMoritz, I think Siddhartha knew Gotama just by looking at him possibly in the same way Rama and Sita were brought together. I think that it is clear that Siddhartha will one day achieve enlightenment and become a Buddha and because this is his destiny, he was able to detect another Buddha. Just as it was destiny due to their pasts as gods for Sita and Rama to be together, I feel that Siddhartha and Gotama were connected in a similar way.
ReplyDeletep.s. i agree with cbeck
ReplyDeleteI think that you can reach enlightenment through different paths as like how we look at our religion. I don't go to church or worship, but I do community service such as habitat for humanity. Other people go to church every sunday and pray every night before they go to bed. I feel and learned that either way, you can reach the ultimate goal and go to heavan. So yes, I do beleive that Govinda and Siddhartha can reach enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jenna, I think that Siddartha just knew who he was because he was in the same "field." I think he might have also just had a feeling, and could feel that they were in tune with the same ideas.
ReplyDelete@Dan-
ReplyDeleteSiddhartha and Govinda?
I agree with what kristen said because there is obvisously some connection between Siddhartha and Gotama and they have never met in this life before. I think that is has to do with cycles of life and death and that in a past life they did know each other because there is no other way to explain that connection.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Courtney. I don't think that life is only about knowledge and trying to understand everything. I think that life is the happiness we experience, the heartbreak, and everything in between. These things are what make life worth living. If the only thing to attain in life was complete knowledge, I think that I would go a little crazy. These emotions and experiences also help us learn new things and learn from our mistakes.
ReplyDelete@Kristen
ReplyDeleteI think that both Siddhartha and Govinda have a chance of reaching there own enlightenment. Siddhartha will reach his enlightenment by being solitary and learning for experiences instead of a teacher. Govinda will have a chance of reaching his enlightenment, but instead he will have Gotama as a teacher. Either way could lead either of them to their own enlightenment.
@moritz- it seems there is always a deeper connection between the "god like" characters in Gilgamesh ramayana and now this one aswell. their past lives and experiences connect them.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Moritz's question, I think that the Gotama's confidense maybe stood out to Siddhartha. The way I picture him, is he is somewhat oblivious to those around him. He is not worried by the distractions surrounding him as he walks around with his bowl of alms. I think that this is hard for most people to do. The way he walked around with a content look on his face, peacefully, stands out from many people. This could be part of the reason he was distinguished from the other monks.
ReplyDeletekorlandini I think that he is on a journey similar to that of Rama and Gilgamesh but I don't think he is a hero. Siddhartha's journey seems like a medium between that of Rama and Gilgamesh. Rama set out to save Sita and destroy the Asuras, Gilgamesh set out to gain power, and Siddhartha set out to find enlightenment and himself. Although he is not as selfish as Gilgamesh, he is not going on his journey to help out anyone out he is simply going on it to fulfill his life goal.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Zoe, I believe the book is teaching that exact theme. That you need to go on and find your way, be it different from someone else or not, or what makes logical sense in your mind. I mean Siddartha went looking for his own way, not his father's or Govinda's, but HIS OWN.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kristen. Buddha just seemed to give off a certian air that Siddhartha had seen no where else in his travels. Siddhartha also seemed to beable to enter others souls and see inside of them- maybe he was able to see inside the Buddha and realize he was truly who he claimed to be.
ReplyDelete@Sam-- I would have to disagree on the pain thing. Many women have had babies and have bore the pain---mind over matter. Not me of course, bring on the meds. :)
ReplyDelete@mmoritz--I think Siddhartha knew who Gotama was because he is someone who has done so much. I know that people who are so well known and enlightened now a days even, have a certain ora(if thats the right word) surrounding them. It seems as if their enlightnment, knowledge and experinces shine off of them like a halo of knowledge and what not. Somethng about Gotama might drag Siddhartha into him like a magnet.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of it was fate that Siddhartha knew Gotama just by looking at him. If Siddharatha is ment to become a Buddha and if he is getting closer to gaining enlightenment then he should be able to figure out what a Buddha should look like and be like.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that you can classify Siddartha as a hero. He is doing this for himself and only for himself. His entire journey is based on the fact he wants knowledge that no one can give him but himself.
ReplyDelete@moritz
ReplyDeleteI was asking if Sidartha and Govinda possibly knew eachother like Rama knew Sita in the Ramayana.
I agree with Trent. The book is showing that although numerous poeple are trying to reach their own enlightenment, they can do it in different ways. Siddhartha may think that his way is better than others or visa versa but in the end all that matters is wether each individual reached is personal level of enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel Govinda abandoned Siddhartha for Gotama, but he also didn't leave thinking Sddhartha would follow. I think he understood Siddhartha's journey for knowledge was no place for him to be. He respected Siddhartha's goals and knew he could not help his friend and would only hinder him. I believen he left because Govinda saw another strong will person and followed him out of respect and love for Siddhartha. Gotama was simply a replacement Siddhartha. They both had amazing wisdom.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate everyone's insight on the connection between Siddhartha and Gotama. I've never really thought about them knowing each other in a previous life, but that seems dead on to me. Well done.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I relate the whole meeting of Siddhartha and Gotama to me looking at Ivy League colleges and wishing I belonged there. No matter how badly I wish I could jump into Stanford and be successful (wink), I know that is not the place I belong and that I have a different path to follow. Siddhartha sees Gotama and knows that is his goal, but he cannot reach that by simply following him. He must find the way that's right for him.
ReplyDelete@Mrs. Moritz
ReplyDeleteThere are many different ways that Siddhartha could have known Gotama. Kind of weird, but he could of known him from a past life. We have learned, is that the soul is re-born until they reach that "ultimate state". So it is quite possible that Siddhartha actually knew Gotama in a past life. Another explanation could be that in life some people share identical personalities, making it possible to know them without ever meeting them.
Jenna- But Gilgamesh was selfish too, all his journeys were purely for his own gain. In the process of doing that he harmed many people but he also helped people. Does the reason for setting out on his journey really matter? What makes a hero? What he accomplishes and how that affects people or what he sets out to do? I would argue the former.
ReplyDeleteAs of now, I would not say that Siddhartha is a hero. I am sure that as the book goes on he will do something to prove himself, but I think that thus far in the book he has only proven to be self-centered. Everything he does is for his own good, so that he will achieve nirvana on his own terms.
ReplyDeletemaybe siddartha has to find himself before he can really help others. it would seem selfish at first but in the long run maybe it is not.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever had a strong feeling after meeting someone for the first time that you somehow know them? I think that this is the case but in a much deeper way. Fate has a funny way of sneaking into our lives.
ReplyDelete@ Jenna.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. A person who only cares about himself and doesn't care about anything else is a loser. I don't think that a hero is a loser. A hero is someone to me who looks out for other people and helps them when their down.
From what I read, I slightly disagree with Kristen. I don't think it was a life-changing experience of Siddhartha's to see Gotama the first time. But to answer her very good question... I already said that everybody has their different views of enlightenment so I am pretty sure they would reach a "different" one.
ReplyDeleteBrian,
ReplyDeleteI don't think Gilgamesh is a hero either because he didn't do anything selfless. Same reason as Siddartha.
@ Moritz, I hate to disagree with pain, I am not saying babies do not hurt, but there is Buddhism in the Shaolin temple that revolves completely around mind over matter, called Iron Body. Not only is it based upon technique to break an iron rod over their head, but how their mind can actually tolerate it. So it's a learned trait. In other cases you can sometimes will yourself out of pain, by concentrating on other things, as long as pain isn't a precursor to other medical emergencies. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
ReplyDeleteMoritz, I would like to comment on the question you asked Chelsea. I think that though we cant fathom the things Siddhartha is going through, it is exactly like our journeys to discover ourselves. There is pressure on all of us to soon decide how we are going to live our lives and what we are going to do. For me, filling out my college applications was a huge eye opener to how close I was to the real world. Just as Siddhartha is discovering himself, I too am discovering my strengths and weaknesses and am trying to choose the right path for me to achieve the success I desire.
ReplyDeleteSo far I wouldn't say that Siddhartha is a hero, I think he is just like any other person who is trying to achieve a hefty goal in their life. I also think so far Siddhartha is rather selfish, not that he can't be a hero because of that i just don't see that as a characteristic of a hero. I haven't seen him really helping anyone else out right now either which makes him not a hero in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jenna F that Siddartha, as we have read so far in the book, is not a hero. He seems a little selfish to me, in that he came from a life with little hardships, was not satisfied, so he embarked on this journey to achieve nirvana where he is not satisfied with anyones teachings. Yes it shows his thirst for knowledge, but I do get the sense that he thinks himself to be better than all those around him.
ReplyDelete@moritz i'm not saying they can't deal with it, some can without meds. what i'm saying is that even though they can deal with it, it is still present to them. if you asked a woman who had a baby without meds if it was a plesant experience, i would bet they say no. This is for all people, some people can deal with pain, but it is always present
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jenna F. I wouldn't call Siddartha a hero. He really didn't care what his father said about him not going on his journey, because he wanted to go on it for himself. During this part of the book it reminded me of a little kid that wants something from the store and stomping and crying until their parents get if for them. It was something that he wanted to do for himself, not to help others.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jenna. I don't consider Siddhartha a hero, or at least yet. Siddhartha is doing his journey on his own and for himself. He is not trying to please anyone or become a person like Buddha at this point in time, he is far from it. Siddhartha is just like every other person out there, trying to find their journey in order to reach Nirvana. I honestly don't see what makes him so special yet. Siddhartha decides to go his own way and not follow Buddha, maybe this will help him in the future.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that Siddhartha is very--what's the word--unsettled, hyper, unsatisfied--because he keeps leaving people who are supposed to be able to help him reach nirvana (enlightenment). What is that? Why does he keep leaving?
ReplyDelete@moritz
ReplyDeleteobviously not in the sense that they are lovers...obviously...brothers. but if they had a connection that they were unaware of like rama and sita had.
I think that Siddhartha is not a hero, yet. I think right now he is concentrating on himself, to achieve his goal and know all there is to know. My guess is that later in the story he will pass his knowledge on to others, encouraging them to achieve their own goals, just as he did. I think he will show people that everyone has something different in life they long for, and therefore must take different paths to get there.
ReplyDelete@Matt
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Siddhartha only cares about himself though. I think that Siddhartha realizes that he needs to learn from his own experiences. However I don't think that Siddhartha only thinks about himself.
As of now, I would not say that Siddhartha is a hero. I am sure that as the book goes on he will do something to prove himself, but I think that thus far in the book he has only proven to be self-centered. Everything he does is for his own good, so that he will achieve nirvana on his own terms.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Erik. Right now Siddartha has to find himself first. In order for him to really help others he really might need to just get to know himself. Once he understands himself he will be able to help others.
ReplyDelete@Zoe-
ReplyDeleteThat was a very interesting question. I have had that feeling, but how would Siddhartha know Gotama?
I'm a very learn-for-yourself kind of person, much like Siddhartha, and I understand his desire to experience Gotama's teachings for himself, as opposed to simply learning from the words. I never feel fully content with what I know until I have gone into the real world and used it.
ReplyDelete@ Conner.
ReplyDeleteCan you explain yourself. He hasn't done anything for anyone else.
@Justin
ReplyDeleteI agree with Justin. I think that Siddhartha will eventually prove to be a hero, but so far he hasn't done anything of hero level. He hasn't really done things for other people and I think that it is necessary for a hero to do things that benefit others.
I agree with Hannah. Siddartha has done nothing heroic or spectacular. SO far I see him as the guy everyone was so proud of. He has done nothing in the world yet. He was mister popular where he came from. As he continues on his journey, I felt like he was kind of finding a way to get rid of Govida. He seems to want to be alone and gain englightenment for himslef and potentially not share all he will gain. Sure his journey is tough, but what makes him so great? Im sure so many other people have tried to do what he is many times before. A matter of fact we are doing the same thing. Does that makes us all heros?
ReplyDeleteMoritz, I think it comes back to the fact that he will never be able to reach nirvana under the aid of others. I think he leaves because he understands that he must be alone to achieve enlightenment. I keep thinking of it as a baby bird being kicked out of the nest. Siddhartha can be "taught" all the knowledge in the world but ultimately he must learn on his own through his own work and experiences how to "fly".
ReplyDeleteDefine hero. Could it be a hero of himself, since he's stubborn and is finding his own way. Then he's a hero. Is he valiantly saving others from hellfire and doom??? If no then maybe he's not a hero in that respect.
ReplyDeleteSo at what point in our lives, do we stop needing teachers?
ReplyDeleteMoritz, I believe he keeps leaving because he can never be satisfied- nothing will ever be enough for him. He is so obsessed with the next best thing he will never enjoy or appreciate the things he has in front of him. His knowledge is like a rich man’s wealth- it leads him to things but he can never be satisfied with the things he has. I also feel that even if he reaches Nirvana it wont be enough.
ReplyDeleteNot teachers in an academic sense, but teachers in life.
ReplyDelete@ Trent
ReplyDeleteYou can't think of yourself as a hero. Then you're worshipping yourself and people who worships themselves are not heroes.
To answer Moritz's question, I think that Siddhartha is trying to find someone with the same goals as him. He tried living the lifestyle of the Samanas, but then he realized they never reached the ultimate goal. So, how could he reach it, if even the oldest of the Samana's had no reached it? So when he left with Govinda, he was not going with much of an open mind because he believed he could not be taught from teachers. When he saw the Buddha, I think this showed him that enlightenment could be reached. The Buddha did it on his own, and achieved it. Govinda wanted to live by the Buddha's teachings, while Siddhartha wanted to go live and experience achieving enlightenment on his own, just as the Buddha did. I think he has found what is the right path for him.
ReplyDelete@cbeck
ReplyDeleteWell it could be because of what others have said a past life, or it could be more physiological some things are meant to happen and maybe Siddartha knew that he was meant to meet Gotama. So in his mind they already knew eachother.
So it seems to me that everyone's definition of a hero is selfless, or at the very least not selfish. But look at Gilgamesh, even Rama was selfish, do you really believe that he went after Sita simply to save her? Or was it to make himself look better, so he wouldnt loose face by having HIS woman captured and taken away. Just look at how he treats Sita when they were re-united! And how many people does Rama genuinely help? Gilgamesh and Rama are both VERY selfish. Are *they* heroes? What makes a hero anyway?
ReplyDeleteeveryone will have i different diffinition for hero and enlightenment. people interpret everything in a different way. nice martial arts refrence earlier trent
ReplyDeleteI think that Siddartha leaves the Samana's for the same reason he left his father. He knew that there was nothing else he could have learned from them. His level and knowledge began to surpass that of the Samana's making him an unteachable subject for them. Siddartha is so set on acheiving enlightenment and he knows in order to do so he must keep searching and moving until he finds someone who can teach him all he needs to know.
ReplyDelete@ Mortiz
ReplyDeleteLife is the greatest teacher so I think that never would be the answer to your question.
@ Megan-
ReplyDeleteHow would Siddhartha ever become a hero if he only focused on "his" goals? Heroes focus on the people other than themselves and that seems a bit selfish to me
I don't think we ever really stop needing teachers....per se...Not sure how to word it, but we can become a master at something, but never truly master it and some will be better than you, and in some ways you better than them. It really depends on your views, and since they are various, the always needing teachers still applies.
ReplyDeleteI think we always need teachers, and that there is always someone to help guide us. Yet in order for us to truly learn, we must experience our teachings for ourselves. Right now, there is so much we have learned and seemingly so little that we have experienced. This is much like how Siddhartha felt. We need the opportunity to put our knowledge and teachings to the test.
ReplyDelete@Katie, I was thinking the same thing.
ReplyDelete@Matt
ReplyDeleteJust because he hasn't done things for others doesn't mean he only thinks about himself. When the book talks about Siddhartha and how he wants to be solitary, I don't think it means that Siddhartha is selfish. I think that it shows that Siddartha only wants to learn from his own experiences and not be taught by someone. This doens't mean that he is selfish or self-less. I think that eventually Siddhartha will realize that he wants to do things for other people and that will prove that he isn't selfish. I'm not sure if that answered your question and I'm probably digging a hole but it made sense in my head.
@ Moritz.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that we will reach a point where we wont need teachers. Everyone is learning new things by someone else who already konws about it and learning that from someone else. New things are always introduced and we need someone to teach us how to do that thing or use it.
I don't think we ever stop needing teachers. There is a point in our lives that we have enough basis of knowledge to go out and learn our own...but I think that no one can be saturated with knowledge, there is always more to learn. Teachers aren't necessarily those being paid to feed us knowledge...but we can find teachers in those around us.
ReplyDelete@ korlandini
ReplyDeleteRama was going to slay Ravana before he took Sita. Her kidnapping only gave him more of a reason to kill Ravana. Yeah, you can say he is being selfish but he was already going after the Great Tormentor.
I think that Siddartha keeps leaving because he has his mind set on one thing and when he doesn't get what he wanted or it takes longer than expected that he gets antsy and leaves before he can get it. I think maybe he thinks that it shouldn't take as long so he moves on to find something else that will help him achieve enlightenment.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz
ReplyDeleteBoth of my parents are teachers so as long as i need my parents I will need teachers. But in a less literal sense, I don't think we ever grow out of needing teachers. We reach a certain point that we learn from ourselves more than we learn from others. But then doesn't that just make us the teachers?
I think we need teachers in our life forever. No matter the age or anything, there is always someone that can teach you something. It may have great significance or just a little tidbit of information, but we grow and develop into the people we are meant to be through our experiences and those around us. In order to find your true self, you must be constantly growing and taking in wisdom and knowledge. We need this until the day we die.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there is ever a time that we do not need to either learn somrthing or even teach someone somehting. So i think in a way we never really get a break. There is always something more we can learn.
ReplyDelete@moritz--We never stop needing teachers. Everyone in the world has lived a different life than us and no two people know the exact same things. A girl growing up in Littleton can teach a boy growing up on China something completely different. Those expericenes and feelings teach us the most. We can never stop growing and learning. Once we stop there is nothing more. We need to learn those feelings and thoughts and experiences that others can help us understand and get through.
ReplyDeleteI agree with SHustis I don't think that pain isn't present for some people, i think that some people just tolerate it better. I think it is a learned thing and that you can almost teach yourself how to deal with certain amounts of pain. The Buddhism in the Shaolin temple that Trent W. talked about is just taking this concept to an extreme.
ReplyDelete@ Jenna I am not talking about worshiping yourself but being a hero to yourself to remove yourself from a dangerous situation, or doing something good you can be a hero and role model to others.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a point in our life that we will always need teachers. No matter how old you are, there is always something you can learn about, or learn more about. No one is every a master at everything. There is so many different concepts, facts, theories. stories, etc. that go back for thousands of years. No one can possibly no everything. This is even true with life lessons. You might learn a different view on life or have a realization that was different then how you saw things in life. I feel like teachers are very important and no one can ever stop learning.
ReplyDeleteI think that we always need "teachers" I think there is always something that people can offer to you and that you can offer to them. I think that we always need other people and other people always need us. I think it's kind of arrogant if you reach a point where you think you know everything and no one else can teach you anything. Other people and the experiences you share with them are in your life for a reason and I think there is always more to be taught and learned.
ReplyDeleteWho do you think my teachers are?...my children, my students, my colleagues, my friends,....and the list goes on and on.
ReplyDeletein life we are always learning new lessons. you will keep learning the same lesson until you have really learned it. you can never stop learning in life. so someone or something must always be teaching you
ReplyDeleteI dont really know if this will make sense. I think you always need teachers because teachers give you the foundations you need to move on. In a way, teachers give you suggestions about how you can choose to reach your "enlightenment". For example, I have several subjects in school but I've decided I'm most interested in math and sciences and would like to pursue something in those fields.
ReplyDelete@ Connor....
ReplyDeleteYou're kinda contradicting yourself... Can you go back over your posts and clarify what you mean?
I think that the point at which we stop needing teachers varies from person to person and that it can only be determined by ones own self. That being while I think that self discovery and learning are important, especially in the context of a journey like the one Siddhartha is undertaking I don't think that it is irreversible. In other words, after people abandon teachers that is not saying they cannot return to them at a different point.
ReplyDelete@ Trent
ReplyDeleteThat kinda makes some more sense than earlier but the way you said it makes me think that you are believing yourself to be your hero.
Nice work everyone. This was fun. I will see you on Friday. Be sure to read the next chapter for Wednesday. :)
ReplyDeleteBYE MORITZ! Have fun at home with Mackenzie! Hope she gets better soon!
ReplyDeleteGOOD BYE MORITZ!!! SEE YOU ON FRIDAY?
ReplyDeleteEach and every person can teach us. A child can teach play and immagination. A mother can teach unsterstanding and unconditional love. Friends can teach humor. Everyone can add to someones life to make it round and filled with what we chose. In the end it all matters. Live life to the fullest.
ReplyDeleteI don't think teachers are necessary to most things in life. Some like spelling or not to punch someone when you're little, sure. But people can teach themselves how to write, how to ride a bike, ect. Growing up with one parent, I had to do many things by myself. I taught myself most things in the life aspect. Learning to drive a car, yeah, I needed my parent. But how to figure out the halls my first day freshman year or what to do when guys are jerks (sorry, but they often are), frankly, that was all me.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz,
ReplyDeleteI hope you and your family are doing well! Class sucked without you! Seriously..
I think it’s a great concept. Allot of the time people in modern-day run into a similar situation. Once you hit rock bottom you can only go up. In becoming completely empty he can look at the bigger picture of things. With no possessions or anything he doesn’t relate to anything there for he can take as many steps back as he would like.
ReplyDelete