Though we don’t have castes in our society, we certainly have classes. How would you subdivide & describe the classes in America? Do classes follow any racial or ethnic lines? Why? Why not?
although we do have upper middle and lower classes, we still ascociate with all those different people. you might not even know what type of class of a person you are talking to
While there is stratification in American, it has much more fluidity than the caste system of India. In a capitalist economy, subdivisions are inevitable, however, the freedom of opportunity allows for the division between classes to be broken.
There are basically super wealthy, wealthy, well off, middle class, lower middle class, and the rest seem to be below the poverty line. Of course, to some degree it’s ethnically driven, (native Americans on the reservations still have some of the lowest if not the lowest poverty rates, which is really sad) but not to the point where no certain race can work their way up, but a lot of minorities do not make up a large percentage of wealthy.
i think any and all societies have some form of a caste system. and they do follow racial or ethnic lines. in america the racial and ethnic discrimination is blurring, but we always have found a way to exclude some form of people and keep them seperate.
The main difference between the caste system in India and the class system in America is that the caste system is set the minute you are born. There is no way to move up or down in this system. However in the class system you may be born into a class but if you work hard you can move up and if you make bad decisions you can move down.
I would say that there is a definite division between classes based on money, middle, low and high class. And I think within having those classes is where a lot of racial and ethnic lines stream from. I think that even though some of the standards and stereotypes may be true to some extent but the classes we have created intensify those stereotypes.
I think the most obvious examples of classes in America are based on divisions of wealth. These classes can be expanded or narrowed based on where you draw the lines for certain income brackets or "classes". I think that there is a great deal of evidence that while these classes are not defined based upon ethnicity they do follow race boundaries relatively strictly. For example, if you look at those living below the poverty line you see strong evidence that a greater percentage of minorities in the United States fall into this category. Whether these divisions arise from differing cultures, historical differences or de facto discrimination is debatable, but I don't think there is a legitimate argument that classes don't exist in the US.
Our classes although not as concrete and defined as the ones in India are very much so present. we have the upper class, full of those who worked for their money and in most cases deserve it and those who are born into and take advantaqge of it all their lives. then we have our middle class. the largest class with the widest range of people who just follow average lives. then there is the lower class, the homeless and the people going from paycheck to paycheck.
I think we all judge people, whether we like to believe we do or not. Walking down the halls I find myself making assumptions about someone based on trivial things such as how they talk or what they where. While this is in the back of my head and I would never actually act on these presumptions, it seems to me that it is only natural to judge. The difference between our culture and the culture of India is that we strive to work past these judgments while they let it divide them.
In such a powerful and wealthy nation such as the one we live in, there are classes that follow specific divisions in ethnicity and race. Although these classes are less apparent than those of nations like India, these classes can still be incredibly brutal and demeaning. Not only do the different classes in America pertain to different race and ethnicity but also to money. These divisions in our culture are incredibly hard to cross. However unlike India, people in America have the opportunity to follow their dreams and to move up or down the ladder in society.
In my mind I think we are in a way like the cast system. We the little rich neighborhoods and the poorer neighborhoods. we kind of seperate ourselves that way.
As far as if classes follow any ethnic or racial lines I would have to agree that they do in America. Though everyone is offered equal opprotunity here to move up in class, as well as to move down in class, I think it is undeniable that some ethnic groups are more prone to be in certain classes. However, I still think it is important to note that everyone who lives in America has that equal chance to better there lives.
In America, classes are divided up in numerous ways. I do think that classes follow racial lines, at times. It seems to me that people classify hispanics with jobs we would not want, such as cleaning sevices, as illegal immigrants and have a low class. Some african americans that live in bad parts of cities may be considered lower class. Whites seem to think they are better than all of the other races. I do not think this is right because I think all people should be looked at through the same eyes and not judged, but this is the way some kids are being brought up. I also think people are divided by their economic status. On the east coast, there is old money, which has been inherited. On the west coast, there is more new money. In between, there is more middle class and a mixture of both.
I would subdivide the classes in America as lower class, middle class, upper-middle class, and upper class. I think that the classes kind of follow racial and ethnic lines. I think that usually we see more of the ethnic groups in lower to middle classes. But that's not to say that they aren't in higher classes as well, I just think there are more of them in the lower classes. I think it's because for a while they were looked down upon and weren't really given many opportunities because of their race and so it was hard to move up in classes but now, we are giving more opportunities to the ethnic groups because they are the minority.
Based off of what Lauren said, it's very different and less noticeable here because it is easy to move in and out of classes. Here, in the sense of classes and in general it's all about freedom and choices and I think that's where the classes mainly differ.
In such a powerful and wealthy (although we are in serious debt)country, I think our society's caste system is based off of money. This is the land of the free so I don't believe our classes follow any racial or ethnic lines. There is a racial/prosperity trend in this country, but that is all based off education, and everybody has the chance to become educated. Anyways, money defines our caste system because that is the mainly the only thing that can stop people from doing what they want with their lives.
Although we don’t have castes in our society we do have classes and I personally feel that in the majority of these cases the lines that divide them are based on ethnic boundaries. For example when you think lower class you tend to think of a downtown/rundown/"ghetto" area and when we think of the people that live in these areas we often think African Americans or Mexicans. Moving up to the middle and upper classes we tend to think of white citizens or in some cases people of an Asian ethnicity. There are several examples that deviate from this standard as to now we have an African American president. This fact alone explains how American allows ethnic boundaries to be broken with hard work and determination. If we compare the ethnic boundaries influence on classes to the different caste separations there are comparisons but the mere fact that these boundaries can be broken separates classes entirely from the caste system.
There is definately a separation of classess in America but it is mostly based on money were as the system in India is mostly based on religion. Also the class you are in is not as defined as the Indian system. People are not as concearned about what class other people.
In sociology we talked about social stratification and discussed whether or not race influences what class you are in. I think it does, because in America certain races started at the bottom. And Its going to take a long time to climb and climb but over time I don't think there will be a racial line.
I think that there are ways you can move up or down in the caste systems. Like in the movie, Pursuit of Happiness, Will Smith starts off as a very poor man. He has nothing and goes from sleeping in a public bathroom with his son, to become very wealthy. Will Smith worked very hard from where he had come from. This proves that you don't have to be stuck in a caste system, and there are ways to change the future. I think this is much easier to do in America then it is in India however. In "Born into Brothels", it shows how there is a very little shot for children to get out of the caste system they are in. Most are not well respected at all, and have little chance at recieving education.
I dont think that some much now the classes in the US follow any knid of racial or ethinic lines. Just because someone of a minority is in a lower class does not mean that they have to be there. There are minorities spread throughout the classes. As opposed to backin the times of slavery where the minorites were for the most part part of the lower classes
The main difference between India's caste system and America's class system is the idea that we are able to move up or down in our society. We can become rich by getting a best seller or becoming a politician or we can lose all our money in a misplaced business venture or through identity fraud. In India, there is no movement. You are frozen in the caste that you are born into, presumably because of your decisions in a past life. The caste system deals with the past and future while the American class system deals with the present. We are only concerned with the now, not caring what will happen after we are gone. In India, they are concerned with how their decisions will affect their next life and how their deicions from a past life influenced where they are now.
I think that the major difference between the caste system in India and the social classes here in America is the fact that here in America it is much easier to move up and down from class to class. If you work hard, inherit money, win the lottery, or marry into wealth, all of those things will help bring up up socially. On the other hand, there are many things that can make you lose wealth and therefore move down in social status. On the contrary, the caste system is much more set in stone, and it is literally impossible to get out of your caste within this lifetime, but if you live your life being the best you can be you may return a level up in your next life.
I think that classes are subdivided from the wealthy down to the poor who live on the streets. In America though, it is much easier to break out of the class you are born into. I think that it is very difficult to break classes down and categorize people based on their race or ethnicity. Each class seems to be racially and ethnically diverse, and I'm sure if we were to look at them under a microscope, we would find that there are certain patterns in the dispersal of races, but I am not classified to make that judgment.
I agree with Brian. we do have racial and ethnic lines in america. It is done a little to often though. Unlike a cast system we have a class system in which you have a chance to work into other classes.
I agree with what Laurenp said. There is no definite line between classes in American, as there is in between castes in India. While people of a certain class tend to work a similar type of job with a similar income to those that are of the same living conditions, there are not specific jobs to a certain class.
There is a speration of classes in America but we don't take it to an extreme like they do in India. In America we strongly value equality and people from America's richest and poorest familys have the opportunity to succeed. However it is much easier for a rich person than a poor person from the Bronx. I do think the classes in America are somewhat defined by racial lines. Typically the minorities are the poorer of the classes. I wish it wasn't this way but it is hard for them to escape from poverty similar to Bakah's situation.
I would divide our society into 5 classes WITHIN our country. On a wealthiness scale, Level One would consist of people without homes, food, or very many resources. Level two would be those who live in what some may call "underprivledged conditions" where they have a place to stay, but are severlyt in debt or not living in cleanly conditions. Level 3 would have some people in our school - those whose families are having some financial trouble, but are also not having a huge problem, and have hopes of getting back on their feet. Level 4 would be like many at Arapahoe - where money is an object for the larger things (like a house, repairs, remodeling, cars, etc) but to pay for a simple school fee or impulse buys at Target is nothing to worry about. The Level 5 members are those who live in unneccesarily large houses, fancy and extravagant cars, maybe have a few residences - but most of all live in extragance, as I mentioned. These people work hard for what they earn, so many times, they are living the life they wish to live because they have earned it.
However, regarding the entire world, you could say we have many dividing lines that put us into separate classes, such as our economies, technology, resources, and development. We, honestly, as far as quality of life in general, are the top of the caste. Other well developed places in Europe would also be among us in the top. Even though China is growing and becoming more successful, the quality of their lives as far as polution and cultural customs prohibits them from passing us in the rank. Other than that, the countries go down from there - certain underdeveloped, third world countries are definitely the lowest. The difference between the caste system and our worldwide division of classes is that we wish to help other people in the world to be better off - by doing mission trips, organizing charities, and donating things to improve the quality of their lives. This differs from the caste because instead of avoiding the other countries, we try to help them and bring them up to an easier level of living.
Going off of what kristen said, one thing I was constantly thinking about while reading the book was how people knew instantly what class others were in. I thought it was particuarly interesting because even members of the same caste can tell who is at the top of the caste and who is at the bottom. However, based on Kristen's comment I now realize that we do the exact same thing in America. Bakha is intantly judged by his clothes for example. In America, I believe we judge people by their clothes as well. I think it is just interesting how quickly we as people associate others to a certain class, even if they arent really a part of that class.
I do think that there is classes in America but it doesn't associate with ethnicity. It doesn't matter what race your our, there is different races in all the classes.
@ Erik I believe no class is better at all, it depends on a persons view of success which is usually monetary not happiness or anything. At least in america, even though the higher up in the society you are, you have more power. In India, of course the best is the Brahmin in their opinion because you work yourself up based upon good works, per se....
Education is what ultimately gives everyone the opportunity to succeed in this country. In India, family and caste define who you are and who you are destined to be. They restrict education to the select few and consequently drown their lower class in a cycle of incapability.
I agree with what Kristen said. I think that in India people just accept their position in society. In America people have the incentive to go out and change their situtation if they want to. This is important to our culture becasuse it creates more competition.
When it comes down to ethnicity controlling our class system, I would have to say it's a topic we don't talk about but it lurks beneath the surface. We don't talk about the growing number of illegal aliens from Mexico and other countries. We don't talk about politicians always being white and rich. We don't talk about the middle class being dissolved away. All of these things are subjects the bring out the worst in people. Our country vehemently denies racial tension but you can't go to one corner of the world without their being such a thing. It is how people are wired and brought up. Differences may make the world but a good thing can't come without the bad to be compared to.
Erik: I think that classes/castes in general are bad but also something that in some form will always exist. Of course the caste/class systems where you can move up and down are the better ones because they allow everyone their own shot of success. For example who knows if someone who has the ability to cure cancer or something else amazing lives in a lower caste in India but is oppressed, therefore never reaching their potential?
I don't think it's fair for us to ask whether one class or another is better. There is an old saying that states that "The people with the most are the least happy." Just because we see how easy their extravagant life looks look, they may not actually enjoy it as much as us that live in the middle class. Therefore, I think the best class is up for decision to each person, but instead of wishing we had another we should focus on making the best of our own.
I agree with Brian but I believe that if somebody like Bakha truly wanted to move up a class in the country, they could do it with a little bit of hard work. I think it is more of a choice to the American people to take that challenge.
i agree with what katy said. they were looked down upon and therefore we never gave them the same oppurtunities. that does not however give any validity to affirmative action. its puts the wrong person in the feild where we need the best.
It is really interesting that in the book automatically knows what class other people are in. When I meet someone I never consider what class they are in. Maybe over time I can tell, but I usually cant look at someone and know.
I dont think we necesarrily have the best system however in compairison to the Caste system our is much more appealing. no one can say one way or another which is better because its an issue of perspective.
Kylie, the last thing you said reminded me of a discussion we had in class. We concluded that the upper caste is willing to give to the lowest class because of the large seperation. However, when castes are closer together, they are much more disrespectful and unwilling to help eachother. I think that large, wealthy nations, such as the U.S. are willing to help the countries who are struggling the most. However, other nations who are closer together as far as wealth and power goes, don't seem as willing to help one another. In a way, this follows the same trend as in the India caste system.
Yea I agree with Kristen. Its really hard for people to move up in a socity when they don't have the education to do so. The chance that we get to go to school and get and education can help us get into a higher class.
I agree to what Brian said. I think in America we judge people more then we think. Going off what Brian said, we look at what clothes people wear, but also what cars we drive, houses we live in, or materialistic things we have. Everyone tries to compete with one another with who has the better this or that. I think that America does judge our society more then we think. Even though our social classes are not as extreme as the caste system in India, we do look at each other, maybe just more materialistic then in India.
@ Kristen: I agree with you that educatoin ultimatly provides everyone in American with the opportunity to succeed, but I also believe that not everyone is given an equal opportunity at education based on their financial situation. A family that is considered poor in which both parents work, so the older sibling has to stay home and watch younger siblings, and eventually have to get a job to make an income to support the family, creates a cycle in which survial becomes more important than education, thus creating a wall for thta family to move up classes.
It is kind of ironic that the steps in India between castes are so little (a sweeper and a washer) and yet the different treatment of these people is huge. In America on the other hand we have people living in very rich areas and other people living in less wealthy areas and yet they go to the same school and are treated basically the same. It is just interesting to me that our steps in class can be so huge, a person who can't pay for food and someone who has a private jet,can essentially do the same things. They can both go to the same school, have the same job, and eat the same places even though their classes are so different. Obviously their lives would be different because the one person is going to have a lot more nice things, but there is nothing that is preventing that other person from working hard and eventually becoming wealthy as well.
People in India have an incentive to live a good life in their cast so that they will be moved up in their next life. I think that it makes more sense to be able to move classes with hard work at more of your own free will. If you want to be lazy you will move down. if you want to work really hard you will move up. The Indian cast system doesn’t allow for this. It seems in the Indian cast system they are hoping for something that they might never actually achieve.
Also combining Danielh some other conversations, sterotypically, though not always true, some minorties are farther down and whites and asians are higher up here in America. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE! But if one is to be better than another then sterotypically you are comparing races and ethnicities which leads you back to a racism issue which should be completely gone by now.
@zoe i agree with you. I guess why we can't always assume what class someone is from is because we grew up in a very sheltered place. Littleton is all upper middle class I feel. There are some people who aren't as wealthy but I don't think we know that from right away. I know from experience going to someone's house and getting a smack in the face when I found out they had sever money problems. We are so sheltered we think we are all pretty much the same. We have to take the time to get to know people to find out about there homelife before we can tell what class they are.
Brian: I agree with your thoughts on nations helping each other out but it made me think of another way our class system differs from India’s. As you said the classes that are close together tend to not want to help each other out. I would have to say that this is not the same in America. But instead both people of lower and higher classes are willing to help each other out.
One thing I have to disagree with many people on this blog is the degree to which we have class mobility in the United States. I think that there is a general misconception about just how difficult it is to change socio-economic classes in the US. The vast majority of children in the US will remain within one class division (up or down)from that of their parents. In addition, the degree of intergenerational class mobility in the United States is actually significantly lower than that of many other Western nations. I think that the 'rags to riches' mentality that exists in the minds of many Americans is far more of a myth than people realize.
*This is Chelsea, for some reason I cannot log onto any computer so Hannah and I are just going to switch off.
Megan and Kristen: I definitely agree with you. I think that no matter where in the world the key to success, wealth, etc. is education. With a good education you can get anywhere in life. That being said, even though it is much easier to get a decent education that does not mean that everyone has the same opportunity to do so.
i agree with what brian said, it almost seems like there in a race to get somewhere, but the upper caste is so far ahead, they dont mind giving a little bread here and there, but the castes closer together seem to never want to give any lineancy at all.
Cbeck, I appreciate you agreeing with me, however, I partially disagree with you. I don't think it matters how hard Bakha works at his job or in his life; he will never be able to move up in caste. His job now is the lowest of jobs. However, it is clear that he works the hardest and tries the hardest to be clean and proper. Even with this though, he still has had no opportunity to move up. Also, I think that with the constant ridicule from others, including his own father, along with the lack of money and education, Bakha will never be able to move up in caste.
I don't think it is necessarily hoping for something that they will never achieve. I think it is that the people of India believe in their religion to the such an extent that anything is possible. They believe that what they do in this life transcends to their next life. It all comes down to what they believe and how they act upon what they believe. Castes are important in their society and always have been. Stepping out of a norm is a hard thing to do, it's like pulling play doh from a sweater. You can pull a lot of it out but some of it is always going to be left behind and never fully gone.
I think that we don't like to think that anyone is better than anyone else based on what class they are in, how much money that they make or what kind of clothes they wear, but ultimately I think that in the back of our heads, thats what we are thinking. I know that I personally wouldn't want to go to a run down neighborhood where there is a lot of crime and grunge, because I don't feel safe. I feel like we judge people by just one look and automatically think that we don't want to be associated with those people because we think we're better, so I do think that if you are in one class or caste that is higher than another, people think they are better than those that are lower than them.
I also agree with what Kristen said about education being the basis for advancement in society. Without an education you cannot get a job, but parents who don't have jobs find it difficult to send their children to school. Therefore supporting the vicious cycle which has been created. I think this is demonstrated in the movie we watched. The photographer wanted to get the children into a school so badly. The boarding schools were reluctant to let anyone in whose parents were criminals, and almost all of the children from the video had mothers who were prostitutes because that was the only way to support their family. I also thought the fact that even after the woman had gotten them into school, many of the parents withdrew their children even though they may have known that it was the only chance for their child to be something more than a resident of the red light community.
I agree that Bakha, with a bit of hard work, should be able to upgrade his position in society. But what we have to realize is that Indians accept their situtiation, even though they don't like it. They themselves don't believe that they can change their caste. I think Bakha is different than most other Indian people though. The fact that he has aquired higher class cloths helps him appear differently to other Indians. With any luck he may be seen as someone from a higher class instead of as a latrine cleaner.
I disagree with Lauren. I think the large majority of Arapahoe students are socioeconomically very similar. Yes, some live in The Preserve and some live in Highlands 460. But on the grand scheme of things, there is relatively no difference. However, if an Arapahoe student transferred to an inner city school where the economic lifestyle is drastically different, they would likely feel very uncomfortable. I do not think we treat everyone equally. Even within our miniscule sphere of social class at Arapahoe, we separate ourselves based on minor details, such as The Preserve vs. Ben Franklin or any other nearly identical neighborhood.
In a capitalist nation, we are bound to have a caste system based off money. The only possible way for that to disappear is to become a socialist country. But under socialism, we would have to sacrifice a lot of freedom for that to happen.
This is Hannah... From the end of Sabrina's comment I thought of another way the castes differ. I think that her in America people from higher classes are willing to help out people from lower castes and help them climb up the latter. That is clearly no the case in India. I think our classes are less distinct and more respectful and aware of each other.
I think that the major difference between the caste system in India and the social classes here in America is the fact that here in America it is much easier to move up and down from class to class. If you work hard, inherit money, win the lottery, or marry into wealth, all of those things will help bring up up socially. On the other hand, there are many things that can make you lose wealth and therefore move down in social status. On the contrary, the caste system is much more set in stone, and it is literally impossible to get out of your caste within this lifetime, but if you live your life being the best you can be you may return a level up in your next life.
I deleted my comment to add more. @ Megan OD, there is a choice to take care of something or not and further your education like in the movie, how that girl ran away to get an education. It's choice! But I also agree with tony, where that some people don't have mobility in socio-economic classes, I believe it's because they don't want to movie higher, because they are content or other reason. But it's been proven that it's possible nonetheless
At Hannah, I disagree with our classes being less distinct and more respectful and aware of each other. I think that the classes in America simply ignore each other or strive to be the other. We don't outright undermine each other but we don't intermingle either.
i agree with what people are saying about class systems in the usa, our classes are mostly based on wealth. but this is not how it used to be. back during the civil var time when people had slaves, this was the most prominent and obvious caste system we as a country has ever had. we obviously did not like what was happening and chenged it
I agree with Katie H. Even though we don't want to judge people, I feel like we do judge people who live in run down neighborhoods. I know that when I go somewhere run down, I don't feel safe, and try to be with someone at least, or get out of their as fast as I can. I feel like that the middle class system that most of us our in is what we are use too. When we go out of our class, we can sometimes feel uncomfortable for how bad the conditions are, or for what we don't have personally.
I don't agree Jenna's comment about racial tension involving "every corner of the world." I think that there is a big difference between racial diversity and racial tension. There is a lot of racial tension with people who were brought up with parents who discriminate against people of other races. But, I don't think that looking at someone and noticing they are of a different race makes that racial tension. I think, especially in our area, we have gotten a lot better about only noticing their race and not judging them based on it. We can see how far we've come based on our president, who is black. If we were to go back to the civil rights movement and tell them that in the future, America would have a black president, they would not believe it. Yes, there are people who don't like the President. Some because of his party, some because of his decisions, and some because of his race. But I think the fact that America has come this far shows that the racial tension does exist, but not in all of our country. We do still have a ways to go before there is no racial tension, this may never happen. But I think people simply noticing a race and not judging on it is a huge improvement from our former judgements based on races.
@jenna F how do we not intermingle? I see what you are saying and agree but like at arapahoe, we intermingle with really rich teens, and there are also people below the poverty line and they could be best friends...so in other words explain what you mean by that.
I disagree with Kristen I know people who live in apartments who are not exactly the wealthiest people who are best friends with people who live in the Preserve. I know this is not how everyone is but for the most part I don't believe that people base their friends off of how much money they have.
Hey just to change the subject a little I have a question:
Why is Bakha nervous or unwilling to convert to Chritianity even though he likes the idea of Jesus viewing everyone equally (as far as caste and class is concerned)?
Jenna I disagree I think we do intermingle with each other. I bet in this room we have at least two different classes here. And we just haven't considered it or cared.
I have a question for you all, to add to Brian's question:
What draws does Bakha have toward becoming a Christian? What does he see as a benefit from joining their community, and what do you predict will come out from it? Is that a good idea for him in his state, or will it backfire?
At Trent What I mean is that even if we interact we're not of the same circle of friends. I know that sounds kind of snobbish but it really does happen. Maybe not her, because Arapahoe is usually a different case but other places around our country it happens all to often.
I agree with Katie. As much as we want to all get along and not judge on money, I think it is human nature to think about it. In today's society money really runs the world. Money gets us everything we can materialistly want and/or need. Money provides us with saftey. When we think of poor neighborhoods we think of crime and scary events. We can't help it. I think in Littleton we try our best to break sterotypes and give a helping hand to those in need but we will always look at money. We can't help it.
@trent I don't think its fair to say that poor people lack class mobility because they don't want to move up. Regardless of what laws we put in place, discrimination still occurs in the United States. Some people have to drop out of high school in order to care for a younger sibling. Does that choice mean that they don't want to move up?
Brian: I think that anyone would be hesitant to switch religions. Bakha has only known Hinduism all his life. The people around him are Hindu and his parents are Hindu. He also heard his father talk negatively about the Colonel trying to convert him so it is only natural that Bakha would be nervous.
Bakha is drawn towards the equality portion of it, and like brian said nervous because the British who are christians are controlling the country. Like Ghandi said I like your Christ but I don't like you christians you are nothing like him. I believe that stemmed from the control from the British empire that they still seem to be supreme and yet preach equality.
Connor/Colton: I agree that Bakhas reason for wanting to upgrade his position is based on his contact with higher castes but I disagree that this can be done. It is too deep routed in their society but I also feel that if more people could feel the way he did - there could be little changes bad. Just like how originally in America African Americans started at the bottom with not ability to move against segregation but eventually enough people “revolted” to make a change. But this is a little different than going against a race- but just for examples sake…
Lauren, I understadn what you are saying about people living in apartments who are friends with people on 24 acres. They do not base those relationships off of economic status, but in many cases, people who would be invited to their christmas party may consist of a higher class. Just because they are family friends does not mean they would be business friends and such. We live in an area that really does not have many people who are EXTREMELY wealthy - I think when you get the the richest of the rich, this petty versus normal status becomes more apparent, and just because they are firends or their children are friends does not mean that they wish to discuss business with them or be more than just people to talk small talk at church and invite to their annual christmas party.
@Kylie I think Bakha is just sick of being the lowest of the low. Christianity offers an opportunity of equality. I don't think he understands that the equality is in God's eyes and he that he will still have to live his life as a sweeper until Judgement Day. I do think that if Bakha converted to Christianity, this would only push him futher away from what he wants. It would make him even more untouchable because he is rejecting "their" religion. People really won't want to touch a person who cleans latrines and worships a fake God in their eyes.
Jenna, I think that is a very hard generalization to make. I have been thinking a lot about diversity as we go on to colleges, some that will be in different states. I have gone on recruit trips and I would have to say, there is much more diversity on the campuses than there is here. Not only is there more diversity, they are in the same group of friends as others. I'm not saying Arapahoe does not do this, we just do not have near as much diversity as other parts of the country. I would say the Denver area is good at accepting other races, but there are not as many in our little subur of Denver area as in many other parts of the country. I feel that we cannot make this generalization until we get out and leave the suburbs in order to experience it for ourselves.
What I mean is that the culture in which Arapahoe kids live is relatively the same for everyone when compared with culture of people outside of the bubble. I mean that regardless of if you live in an apartment or a house in a wealthier neighborhood, your lifestyle is basically the same here because of the comforts we are given. Some people recognize this and branch out within the culture of Arapahoe, which is great, while others divide themselves based on small details. Either way, we live in a very different culture than those who live just hours away.
I agree with most of what has been said thus far about Bakha's reluctance to conversion but in addition to that I think that Hinduism provides one of the few elements of stability in Bakha's life and that he is reluctant to let go of that.
I think it has to do with the fact that it is a HUGE change for Bahka to switch religions. It's not because they are so different or that Bahka finds one more appealing than the other but the fact that he's going from something he has known his entire life and grown comfortable to (even if he doesn't like it). It's like going to college for us. We're suddenly going from living with our parents to being on our own. Big changes incite hesitance.
I agree with Tony when he says that the "poor people" don't lack motivation. There are usually many other circumstances that are not allowing them to move up as successfully or quickly in some cases, but there are also cases of a lack of motivation. I think it all depends on the person and their situation and life circumstances. But at least in America we have the opportunity to move up at any point in life and with a decent chance of succeeding.
Sarah I agree, it would be extremely hard for someone to change religions. However, for me personally, if I was at the very bottom of the caste system, if I were a sweeper, the idea of Chritianity would be very appealing to me. For me, I would look for any escape from my current situation and Christianity seems to be a source for that in Bakha's situation. Also, technically I would argue that Bakha doesn't know that much about Hinduism. Not only is he not even allowed at the temple, but he also doesnt have that much knowledge of the Hindu gods. For this reason, I still am not sure why Bahka would not take more advantage of what the missionary had to say.
@ BGuymon- I'm sure just about everyone who doesn't know of Jesus is skeptical about him. I'm sure it's hard for Bakha to believe that such a God actually accepts him, too. After living a life of hell on earth, I bet Bakha has a hard time believing that somebody is willing to save him.
@ tony. not really, I mean it's still a choice but sometimes you can be so locked in to the point where there is a choice, but it's only a small sliver of a pie so to speak, they can also get a better education after also, or at the same time. I have no idea if that makes sense to you...it's hard to word
I agree with what meg said, that there is racial diversity everywhere in the world, but maybe not racial tension. at the same time i feel that we cannot be ignorant about how there IS some racial tension in the world. the good news is that as a people we are becoming more culturally accepting
Great reference trent. I totally agree. I also think that that is sort of some foreshadowing for Bakha going to listen to Gandhi speak. I think it will be interesting to see Bakha's interpretation of all three religions from a Hindu perspective.
I agree with SarahW. I think that anyone who is given a new idea or a new religion would be hesitant, even if that's what they want and believe in. He's only known Hinduism and if he changes religions, the people that he is the closest to and the ones around the city will not approve. He knows that and I don't think that Bakha wants to leave everything he's known his whole life so fast. I know that I would be hesitant to leave everything behind too.
I think that it's true that we do live a very different life then people do who attend a high school just a few hours away. If you compare Arapahoe High School to a school in Aurora or Denver, you would see the differences greatly. It's so weird that just by going a few hours away how different the culture can change.
This is Hannah. I think ultimately success and where you end up has a lot to do with a combination of many things we have talked about. I think that is have to do with your race and ethnicity sometimes, your family, where you live, your education, your motivation and many other things. I think we are given more opportunities here and we chose to do things with them and i think people in India would do the same if they had the opportunities we do.
I agree with Tony's comment. At least in Hinduism, if Bakha leads a good life, he has to chance to move up castes in the next life. If he converts to a different religion, he loses the ability to blame his social situation on bad karma, and he loses the hope the Hinduism provides him for future lives. This is not to say that converting to a new religion wouldn't help him explain his life situation, it's just to say that Hinduism is the known, and another religion is the unknown.
i would have to disagree with what someone said about there being racial diversity, but not tension in the world. in america i could agree that is the case. but when you go on a global basis. theres enough hate that people within religions will eachother over slight arguements.
Also, in response to Brian I'm not sure that at some point in the future Bakha won't convert. Its important to note that the entire novel occurs over a 24 hour period. Conversion is more often than not a gradual process and not one that many people would make in a single day especially if that day was their first exposure.
Tony: You say he doesnt want to give it up because it gives him stability. I disagree- I dont think that this is what is keeping him from switching. I cant exactly say what is keeping him at this point but I dont think that stability is it.
To Tony Because someone drops out of school to care for one of their siblings doesn't mean they don't want to move up, they are just doing what they have to do. I am sure they still want to succeed but because of their love for their sybling they are will to potentially give up their success to ensure the succecss of their sibling.
I agree with hannah that many people are born into bad situations and cannot help it. This is like bakah's family, who is in extreme poverty. he can work honest work all his life and never gain as much money as the majority of the world will make. this is sad and i feel like is a main reason that i do not like the caste system
Brian, I do agree and know that Bakha has little to no understanding of the Hindu religion of which he has been raised, but although it is not stated I think it is a [art of his mother that he is not willing to let go of. His father is very abusive to him, and the little bit he has spoken about his mother seems to be with fond memories. He said that she always used to pray to the Gods and maybe he thinks that remaining faithful to Hinduism would somehow keep part of his mother close to him.
Megan, I agree that it might not be best for him to switch religions now because at least in his religion he has a chance at moving up in his next life. But, I would also consider his situation. Bakha is at the very bottom of society already. I know Mr. Cambell mentioned the possibilities of being born in the next life as something lower than a sweeper, however, I still think that taking the chance of converting religions is a good one. If he makes the wrong decision, he won't lose much in the next life. If it is the right decision, he could potentially change his situation greatly.
At Trent, He'd have to be human and subjected to being out casted by his family. We saw how he took being beaten. He withdrew from his friends and he'll withdraw even further into himself if he his family is taken from him.
Sarah. Good point. That connection between Bakha and Hinduism would be even greater. He not only is surrounded by the culture of it constantly but it is his last connection to his mother. I think that that will keep him from changing to any other religion or system of casts.
although we do have upper middle and lower classes, we still ascociate with all those different people. you might not even know what type of class of a person you are talking to
ReplyDeleteWhile there is stratification in American, it has much more fluidity than the caste system of India. In a capitalist economy, subdivisions are inevitable, however, the freedom of opportunity allows for the division between classes to be broken.
ReplyDeleteThere are basically super wealthy, wealthy, well off, middle class, lower middle class, and the rest seem to be below the poverty line. Of course, to some degree it’s ethnically driven, (native Americans on the reservations still have some of the lowest if not the lowest poverty rates, which is really sad) but not to the point where no certain race can work their way up, but a lot of minorities do not make up a large percentage of wealthy.
ReplyDeletei think any and all societies have some form of a caste system. and they do follow racial or ethnic lines. in america the racial and ethnic discrimination is blurring, but we always have found a way to exclude some form of people and keep them seperate.
ReplyDeleteThe main difference between the caste system in India and the class system in America is that the caste system is set the minute you are born. There is no way to move up or down in this system. However in the class system you may be born into a class but if you work hard you can move up and if you make bad decisions you can move down.
ReplyDeleteI would say that there is a definite division between classes based on money, middle, low and high class. And I think within having those classes is where a lot of racial and ethnic lines stream from. I think that even though some of the standards and stereotypes may be true to some extent but the classes we have created intensify those stereotypes.
ReplyDeleteI think the most obvious examples of classes in America are based on divisions of wealth. These classes can be expanded or narrowed based on where you draw the lines for certain income brackets or "classes".
ReplyDeleteI think that there is a great deal of evidence that while these classes are not defined based upon ethnicity they do follow race boundaries relatively strictly. For example, if you look at those living below the poverty line you see strong evidence that a greater percentage of minorities in the United States fall into this category. Whether these divisions arise from differing cultures, historical differences or de facto discrimination is debatable, but I don't think there is a legitimate argument that classes don't exist in the US.
Our classes although not as concrete and defined as the ones in India are very much so present. we have the upper class, full of those who worked for their money and in most cases deserve it and those who are born into and take advantaqge of it all their lives. then we have our middle class. the largest class with the widest range of people who just follow average lives. then there is the lower class, the homeless and the people going from paycheck to paycheck.
ReplyDeleteI think we all judge people, whether we like to believe we do or not. Walking down the halls I find myself making assumptions about someone based on trivial things such as how they talk or what they where. While this is in the back of my head and I would never actually act on these presumptions, it seems to me that it is only natural to judge. The difference between our culture and the culture of India is that we strive to work past these judgments while they let it divide them.
ReplyDeleteIn such a powerful and wealthy nation such as the one we live in, there are classes that follow specific divisions in ethnicity and race. Although these classes are less apparent than those of nations like India, these classes can still be incredibly brutal and demeaning. Not only do the different classes in America pertain to different race and ethnicity but also to money. These divisions in our culture are incredibly hard to cross. However unlike India, people in America have the opportunity to follow their dreams and to move up or down the ladder in society.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind I think we are in a way like the cast system. We the little rich neighborhoods and the poorer neighborhoods. we kind of seperate ourselves that way.
ReplyDeleteAs far as if classes follow any ethnic or racial lines I would have to agree that they do in America. Though everyone is offered equal opprotunity here to move up in class, as well as to move down in class, I think it is undeniable that some ethnic groups are more prone to be in certain classes. However, I still think it is important to note that everyone who lives in America has that equal chance to better there lives.
ReplyDeleteIn America, classes are divided up in numerous ways. I do think that classes follow racial lines, at times. It seems to me that people classify hispanics with jobs we would not want, such as cleaning sevices, as illegal immigrants and have a low class. Some african americans that live in bad parts of cities may be considered lower class. Whites seem to think they are better than all of the other races. I do not think this is right because I think all people should be looked at through the same eyes and not judged, but this is the way some kids are being brought up. I also think people are divided by their economic status. On the east coast, there is old money, which has been inherited. On the west coast, there is more new money. In between, there is more middle class and a mixture of both.
ReplyDeleteI would subdivide the classes in America as lower class, middle class, upper-middle class, and upper class. I think that the classes kind of follow racial and ethnic lines. I think that usually we see more of the ethnic groups in lower to middle classes. But that's not to say that they aren't in higher classes as well, I just think there are more of them in the lower classes. I think it's because for a while they were looked down upon and weren't really given many opportunities because of their race and so it was hard to move up in classes but now, we are giving more opportunities to the ethnic groups because they are the minority.
ReplyDeleteBased off of what Lauren said, it's very different and less noticeable here because it is easy to move in and out of classes. Here, in the sense of classes and in general it's all about freedom and choices and I think that's where the classes mainly differ.
ReplyDeleteAnd by where I mean wear. Whoops!
ReplyDeleteIn such a powerful and wealthy (although we are in serious debt)country, I think our society's caste system is based off of money. This is the land of the free so I don't believe our classes follow any racial or ethnic lines. There is a racial/prosperity trend in this country, but that is all based off education, and everybody has the chance to become educated. Anyways, money defines our caste system because that is the mainly the only thing that can stop people from doing what they want with their lives.
ReplyDeleteAlthough we don’t have castes in our society we do have classes and I personally feel that in the majority of these cases the lines that divide them are based on ethnic boundaries. For example when you think lower class you tend to think of a downtown/rundown/"ghetto" area and when we think of the people that live in these areas we often think African Americans or Mexicans. Moving up to the middle and upper classes we tend to think of white citizens or in some cases people of an Asian ethnicity. There are several examples that deviate from this standard as to now we have an African American president. This fact alone explains how American allows ethnic boundaries to be broken with hard work and determination. If we compare the ethnic boundaries influence on classes to the different caste separations there are comparisons but the mere fact that these boundaries can be broken separates classes entirely from the caste system.
ReplyDeleteThere is definately a separation of classess in America but it is mostly based on money were as the system in India is mostly based on religion. Also the class you are in is not as defined as the Indian system. People are not as concearned about what class other people.
ReplyDeleteIn sociology we talked about social stratification and discussed whether or not race influences what class you are in. I think it does, because in America certain races started at the bottom. And Its going to take a long time to climb and climb but over time I don't think there will be a racial line.
ReplyDeleteI think that there are ways you can move up or down in the caste systems. Like in the movie, Pursuit of Happiness, Will Smith starts off as a very poor man. He has nothing and goes from sleeping in a public bathroom with his son, to become very wealthy. Will Smith worked very hard from where he had come from. This proves that you don't have to be stuck in a caste system, and there are ways to change the future. I think this is much easier to do in America then it is in India however. In "Born into Brothels", it shows how there is a very little shot for children to get out of the caste system they are in. Most are not well respected at all, and have little chance at recieving education.
ReplyDeleteI dont think that some much now the classes in the US follow any knid of racial or ethinic lines. Just because someone of a minority is in a lower class does not mean that they have to be there. There are minorities spread throughout the classes. As opposed to backin the times of slavery where the minorites were for the most part part of the lower classes
ReplyDeleteThe main difference between India's caste system and America's class system is the idea that we are able to move up or down in our society. We can become rich by getting a best seller or becoming a politician or we can lose all our money in a misplaced business venture or through identity fraud. In India, there is no movement. You are frozen in the caste that you are born into, presumably because of your decisions in a past life.
ReplyDeleteThe caste system deals with the past and future while the American class system deals with the present. We are only concerned with the now, not caring what will happen after we are gone. In India, they are concerned with how their decisions will affect their next life and how their deicions from a past life influenced where they are now.
I think that the major difference between the caste system in India and the social classes here in America is the fact that here in America it is much easier to move up and down from class to class. If you work hard, inherit money, win the lottery, or marry into wealth, all of those things will help bring up up socially. On the other hand, there are many things that can make you lose wealth and therefore move down in social status. On the contrary, the caste system is much more set in stone, and it is literally impossible to get out of your caste within this lifetime, but if you live your life being the best you can be you may return a level up in your next life.
ReplyDeleteI think that classes are subdivided from the wealthy down to the poor who live on the streets. In America though, it is much easier to break out of the class you are born into.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is very difficult to break classes down and categorize people based on their race or ethnicity. Each class seems to be racially and ethnically diverse, and I'm sure if we were to look at them under a microscope, we would find that there are certain patterns in the dispersal of races, but I am not classified to make that judgment.
I agree with Brian. we do have racial and ethnic lines in america. It is done a little to often though. Unlike a cast system we have a class system in which you have a chance to work into other classes.
ReplyDeleteis one system of classes or casts better than another? such as the one we have in america, indian, or other ones.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Laurenp said. There is no definite line between classes in American, as there is in between castes in India. While people of a certain class tend to work a similar type of job with a similar income to those that are of the same living conditions, there are not specific jobs to a certain class.
ReplyDeleteThere is a speration of classes in America but we don't take it to an extreme like they do in India. In America we strongly value equality and people from America's richest and poorest familys have the opportunity to succeed. However it is much easier for a rich person than a poor person from the Bronx. I do think the classes in America are somewhat defined by racial lines. Typically the minorities are the poorer of the classes. I wish it wasn't this way but it is hard for them to escape from poverty similar to Bakah's situation.
ReplyDeleteI would divide our society into 5 classes WITHIN our country. On a wealthiness scale, Level One would consist of people without homes, food, or very many resources. Level two would be those who live in what some may call "underprivledged conditions" where they have a place to stay, but are severlyt in debt or not living in cleanly conditions. Level 3 would have some people in our school - those whose families are having some financial trouble, but are also not having a huge problem, and have hopes of getting back on their feet. Level 4 would be like many at Arapahoe - where money is an object for the larger things (like a house, repairs, remodeling, cars, etc) but to pay for a simple school fee or impulse buys at Target is nothing to worry about. The Level 5 members are those who live in unneccesarily large houses, fancy and extravagant cars, maybe have a few residences - but most of all live in extragance, as I mentioned. These people work hard for what they earn, so many times, they are living the life they wish to live because they have earned it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, regarding the entire world, you could say we have many dividing lines that put us into separate classes, such as our economies, technology, resources, and development. We, honestly, as far as quality of life in general, are the top of the caste. Other well developed places in Europe would also be among us in the top. Even though China is growing and becoming more successful, the quality of their lives as far as polution and cultural customs prohibits them from passing us in the rank. Other than that, the countries go down from there - certain underdeveloped, third world countries are definitely the lowest. The difference between the caste system and our worldwide division of classes is that we wish to help other people in the world to be better off - by doing mission trips, organizing charities, and donating things to improve the quality of their lives. This differs from the caste because instead of avoiding the other countries, we try to help them and bring them up to an easier level of living.
Going off of what kristen said, one thing I was constantly thinking about while reading the book was how people knew instantly what class others were in. I thought it was particuarly interesting because even members of the same caste can tell who is at the top of the caste and who is at the bottom. However, based on Kristen's comment I now realize that we do the exact same thing in America. Bakha is intantly judged by his clothes for example. In America, I believe we judge people by their clothes as well. I think it is just interesting how quickly we as people associate others to a certain class, even if they arent really a part of that class.
ReplyDeleteI do think that there is classes in America but it doesn't associate with ethnicity. It doesn't matter what race your our, there is different races in all the classes.
ReplyDelete@ Erik I believe no class is better at all, it depends on a persons view of success which is usually monetary not happiness or anything. At least in america, even though the higher up in the society you are, you have more power. In India, of course the best is the Brahmin in their opinion because you work yourself up based upon good works, per se....
ReplyDeleteEducation is what ultimately gives everyone the opportunity to succeed in this country. In India, family and caste define who you are and who you are destined to be. They restrict education to the select few and consequently drown their lower class in a cycle of incapability.
ReplyDelete@Kristen
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Kristen said. I think that in India people just accept their position in society. In America people have the incentive to go out and change their situtation if they want to. This is important to our culture becasuse it creates more competition.
When it comes down to ethnicity controlling our class system, I would have to say it's a topic we don't talk about but it lurks beneath the surface. We don't talk about the growing number of illegal aliens from Mexico and other countries. We don't talk about politicians always being white and rich. We don't talk about the middle class being dissolved away. All of these things are subjects the bring out the worst in people. Our country vehemently denies racial tension but you can't go to one corner of the world without their being such a thing. It is how people are wired and brought up. Differences may make the world but a good thing can't come without the bad to be compared to.
ReplyDeleteErik:
ReplyDeleteI think that classes/castes in general are bad but also something that in some form will always exist. Of course the caste/class systems where you can move up and down are the better ones because they allow everyone their own shot of success. For example who knows if someone who has the ability to cure cancer or something else amazing lives in a lower caste in India but is oppressed, therefore never reaching their potential?
@ Erik
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's fair for us to ask whether one class or another is better. There is an old saying that states that "The people with the most are the least happy." Just because we see how easy their extravagant life looks look, they may not actually enjoy it as much as us that live in the middle class. Therefore, I think the best class is up for decision to each person, but instead of wishing we had another we should focus on making the best of our own.
I agree with Brian but I believe that if somebody like Bakha truly wanted to move up a class in the country, they could do it with a little bit of hard work. I think it is more of a choice to the American people to take that challenge.
ReplyDeletei agree with what katy said. they were looked down upon and therefore we never gave them the same oppurtunities. that does not however give any validity to affirmative action. its puts the wrong person in the feild where we need the best.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt is really interesting that in the book automatically knows what class other people are in. When I meet someone I never consider what class they are in. Maybe over time I can tell, but I usually cant look at someone and know.
ReplyDelete@Erik
ReplyDeleteI dont think we necesarrily have the best system however in compairison to the Caste system our is much more appealing. no one can say one way or another which is better because its an issue of perspective.
Kylie, the last thing you said reminded me of a discussion we had in class. We concluded that the upper caste is willing to give to the lowest class because of the large seperation. However, when castes are closer together, they are much more disrespectful and unwilling to help eachother. I think that large, wealthy nations, such as the U.S. are willing to help the countries who are struggling the most. However, other nations who are closer together as far as wealth and power goes, don't seem as willing to help one another. In a way, this follows the same trend as in the India caste system.
ReplyDeleteYea I agree with Kristen. Its really hard for people to move up in a socity when they don't have the education to do so. The chance that we get to go to school and get and education can help us get into a higher class.
ReplyDeleteI agree to what Brian said. I think in America we judge people more then we think. Going off what Brian said, we look at what clothes people wear, but also what cars we drive, houses we live in, or materialistic things we have. Everyone tries to compete with one another with who has the better this or that. I think that America does judge our society more then we think. Even though our social classes are not as extreme as the caste system in India, we do look at each other, maybe just more materialistic then in India.
ReplyDelete@ Kristen: I agree with you that educatoin ultimatly provides everyone in American with the opportunity to succeed, but I also believe that not everyone is given an equal opportunity at education based on their financial situation. A family that is considered poor in which both parents work, so the older sibling has to stay home and watch younger siblings, and eventually have to get a job to make an income to support the family, creates a cycle in which survial becomes more important than education, thus creating a wall for thta family to move up classes.
ReplyDeleteIt is kind of ironic that the steps in India between castes are so little (a sweeper and a washer) and yet the different treatment of these people is huge. In America on the other hand we have people living in very rich areas and other people living in less wealthy areas and yet they go to the same school and are treated basically the same. It is just interesting to me that our steps in class can be so huge, a person who can't pay for food and someone who has a private jet,can essentially do the same things. They can both go to the same school, have the same job, and eat the same places even though their classes are so different. Obviously their lives would be different because the one person is going to have a lot more nice things, but there is nothing that is preventing that other person from working hard and eventually becoming wealthy as well.
ReplyDeletePeople in India have an incentive to live a good life in their cast so that they will be moved up in their next life. I think that it makes more sense to be able to move classes with hard work at more of your own free will. If you want to be lazy you will move down. if you want to work really hard you will move up. The Indian cast system doesn’t allow for this. It seems in the Indian cast system they are hoping for something that they might never actually achieve.
ReplyDeleteAlso combining Danielh some other conversations, sterotypically, though not always true, some minorties are farther down and whites and asians are higher up here in America. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE! But if one is to be better than another then sterotypically you are comparing races and ethnicities which leads you back to a racism issue which should be completely gone by now.
ReplyDelete@zoe
ReplyDeletei agree with you. I guess why we can't always assume what class someone is from is because we grew up in a very sheltered place. Littleton is all upper middle class I feel. There are some people who aren't as wealthy but I don't think we know that from right away. I know from experience going to someone's house and getting a smack in the face when I found out they had sever money problems. We are so sheltered we think we are all pretty much the same. We have to take the time to get to know people to find out about there homelife before we can tell what class they are.
Brian:
ReplyDeleteI agree with your thoughts on nations helping each other out but it made me think of another way our class system differs from India’s. As you said the classes that are close together tend to not want to help each other out. I would have to say that this is not the same in America. But instead both people of lower and higher classes are willing to help each other out.
One thing I have to disagree with many people on this blog is the degree to which we have class mobility in the United States. I think that there is a general misconception about just how difficult it is to change socio-economic classes in the US. The vast majority of children in the US will remain within one class division (up or down)from that of their parents. In addition, the degree of intergenerational class mobility in the United States is actually significantly lower than that of many other Western nations. I think that the 'rags to riches' mentality that exists in the minds of many Americans is far more of a myth than people realize.
ReplyDelete*This is Chelsea, for some reason I cannot log onto any computer so Hannah and I are just going to switch off.
ReplyDeleteMegan and Kristen: I definitely agree with you. I think that no matter where in the world the key to success, wealth, etc. is education. With a good education you can get anywhere in life. That being said, even though it is much easier to get a decent education that does not mean that everyone has the same opportunity to do so.
i agree with what brian said, it almost seems like there in a race to get somewhere, but the upper caste is so far ahead, they dont mind giving a little bread here and there, but the castes closer together seem to never want to give any lineancy at all.
ReplyDeleteCbeck, I appreciate you agreeing with me, however, I partially disagree with you. I don't think it matters how hard Bakha works at his job or in his life; he will never be able to move up in caste. His job now is the lowest of jobs. However, it is clear that he works the hardest and tries the hardest to be clean and proper. Even with this though, he still has had no opportunity to move up. Also, I think that with the constant ridicule from others, including his own father, along with the lack of money and education, Bakha will never be able to move up in caste.
ReplyDeleteAt Erik,
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is necessarily hoping for something that they will never achieve. I think it is that the people of India believe in their religion to the such an extent that anything is possible. They believe that what they do in this life transcends to their next life.
It all comes down to what they believe and how they act upon what they believe. Castes are important in their society and always have been. Stepping out of a norm is a hard thing to do, it's like pulling play doh from a sweater. You can pull a lot of it out but some of it is always going to be left behind and never fully gone.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think that we don't like to think that anyone is better than anyone else based on what class they are in, how much money that they make or what kind of clothes they wear, but ultimately I think that in the back of our heads, thats what we are thinking. I know that I personally wouldn't want to go to a run down neighborhood where there is a lot of crime and grunge, because I don't feel safe. I feel like we judge people by just one look and automatically think that we don't want to be associated with those people because we think we're better, so I do think that if you are in one class or caste that is higher than another, people think they are better than those that are lower than them.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with what Kristen said about education being the basis for advancement in society. Without an education you cannot get a job, but parents who don't have jobs find it difficult to send their children to school. Therefore supporting the vicious cycle which has been created. I think this is demonstrated in the movie we watched. The photographer wanted to get the children into a school so badly. The boarding schools were reluctant to let anyone in whose parents were criminals, and almost all of the children from the video had mothers who were prostitutes because that was the only way to support their family. I also thought the fact that even after the woman had gotten them into school, many of the parents withdrew their children even though they may have known that it was the only chance for their child to be something more than a resident of the red light community.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Colton said:
ReplyDeleteI agree that Bakha, with a bit of hard work, should be able to upgrade his position in society. But what we have to realize is that Indians accept their situtiation, even though they don't like it. They themselves don't believe that they can change their caste. I think Bakha is different than most other Indian people though. The fact that he has aquired higher class cloths helps him appear differently to other Indians. With any luck he may be seen as someone from a higher class instead of as a latrine cleaner.
I disagree with Lauren. I think the large majority of Arapahoe students are socioeconomically very similar. Yes, some live in The Preserve and some live in Highlands 460. But on the grand scheme of things, there is relatively no difference. However, if an Arapahoe student transferred to an inner city school where the economic lifestyle is drastically different, they would likely feel very uncomfortable. I do not think we treat everyone equally. Even within our miniscule sphere of social class at Arapahoe, we separate ourselves based on minor details, such as The Preserve vs. Ben Franklin or any other nearly identical neighborhood.
ReplyDelete@Trent
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, but I believe that the case of the girl in the movie is a very rare case.
In a capitalist nation, we are bound to have a caste system based off money. The only possible way for that to disappear is to become a socialist country. But under socialism, we would have to sacrifice a lot of freedom for that to happen.
ReplyDeleteThis is Hannah...
ReplyDeleteFrom the end of Sabrina's comment I thought of another way the castes differ. I think that her in America people from higher classes are willing to help out people from lower castes and help them climb up the latter. That is clearly no the case in India. I think our classes are less distinct and more respectful and aware of each other.
I think that the major difference between the caste system in India and the social classes here in America is the fact that here in America it is much easier to move up and down from class to class. If you work hard, inherit money, win the lottery, or marry into wealth, all of those things will help bring up up socially. On the other hand, there are many things that can make you lose wealth and therefore move down in social status. On the contrary, the caste system is much more set in stone, and it is literally impossible to get out of your caste within this lifetime, but if you live your life being the best you can be you may return a level up in your next life.
ReplyDeleteI deleted my comment to add more.
ReplyDelete@ Megan OD, there is a choice to take care of something or not and further your education like in the movie, how that girl ran away to get an education. It's choice! But I also agree with tony, where that some people don't have mobility in socio-economic classes, I believe it's because they don't want to movie higher, because they are content or other reason. But it's been proven that it's possible nonetheless
At Hannah,
ReplyDeleteI disagree with our classes being less distinct and more respectful and aware of each other. I think that the classes in America simply ignore each other or strive to be the other. We don't outright undermine each other but we don't intermingle either.
i agree with what people are saying about class systems in the usa, our classes are mostly based on wealth. but this is not how it used to be. back during the civil var time when people had slaves, this was the most prominent and obvious caste system we as a country has ever had. we obviously did not like what was happening and chenged it
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie H. Even though we don't want to judge people, I feel like we do judge people who live in run down neighborhoods. I know that when I go somewhere run down, I don't feel safe, and try to be with someone at least, or get out of their as fast as I can. I feel like that the middle class system that most of us our in is what we are use too. When we go out of our class, we can sometimes feel uncomfortable for how bad the conditions are, or for what we don't have personally.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree Jenna's comment about racial tension involving "every corner of the world." I think that there is a big difference between racial diversity and racial tension. There is a lot of racial tension with people who were brought up with parents who discriminate against people of other races. But, I don't think that looking at someone and noticing they are of a different race makes that racial tension. I think, especially in our area, we have gotten a lot better about only noticing their race and not judging them based on it. We can see how far we've come based on our president, who is black. If we were to go back to the civil rights movement and tell them that in the future, America would have a black president, they would not believe it. Yes, there are people who don't like the President. Some because of his party, some because of his decisions, and some because of his race. But I think the fact that America has come this far shows that the racial tension does exist, but not in all of our country. We do still have a ways to go before there is no racial tension, this may never happen. But I think people simply noticing a race and not judging on it is a huge improvement from our former judgements based on races.
ReplyDelete@jenna F
ReplyDeletehow do we not intermingle? I see what you are saying and agree but like at arapahoe, we intermingle with really rich teens, and there are also people below the poverty line and they could be best friends...so in other words explain what you mean by that.
I disagree with Kristen I know people who live in apartments who are not exactly the wealthiest people who are best friends with people who live in the Preserve. I know this is not how everyone is but for the most part I don't believe that people base their friends off of how much money they have.
ReplyDeleteHey just to change the subject a little I have a question:
ReplyDeleteWhy is Bakha nervous or unwilling to convert to Chritianity even though he likes the idea of Jesus viewing everyone equally (as far as caste and class is concerned)?
BGuymon, I meant "this country" not "the Country." I believe that changes a lot. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteJenna I disagree I think we do intermingle with each other. I bet in this room we have at least two different classes here. And we just haven't considered it or cared.
ReplyDeleteI have a question for you all, to add to Brian's question:
ReplyDeleteWhat draws does Bakha have toward becoming a Christian? What does he see as a benefit from joining their community, and what do you predict will come out from it? Is that a good idea for him in his state, or will it backfire?
my apologies brian i was focusing on the first part of what you said i never really spoke to the second part, though i do agree with it.
ReplyDeleteAt Trent
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that even if we interact we're not of the same circle of friends. I know that sounds kind of snobbish but it really does happen. Maybe not her, because Arapahoe is usually a different case but other places around our country it happens all to often.
I agree with Katie. As much as we want to all get along and not judge on money, I think it is human nature to think about it. In today's society money really runs the world. Money gets us everything we can materialistly want and/or need. Money provides us with saftey. When we think of poor neighborhoods we think of crime and scary events. We can't help it. I think in Littleton we try our best to break sterotypes and give a helping hand to those in need but we will always look at money. We can't help it.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@trent
ReplyDeleteI don't think its fair to say that poor people lack class mobility because they don't want to move up. Regardless of what laws we put in place, discrimination still occurs in the United States. Some people have to drop out of high school in order to care for a younger sibling. Does that choice mean that they don't want to move up?
Brian: I think that anyone would be hesitant to switch religions. Bakha has only known Hinduism all his life. The people around him are Hindu and his parents are Hindu. He also heard his father talk negatively about the Colonel trying to convert him so it is only natural that Bakha would be nervous.
ReplyDeleteBakha is drawn towards the equality portion of it, and like brian said nervous because the British who are christians are controlling the country. Like Ghandi said I like your Christ but I don't like you christians you are nothing like him. I believe that stemmed from the control from the British empire that they still seem to be supreme and yet preach equality.
ReplyDeleteConnor/Colton:
ReplyDeleteI agree that Bakhas reason for wanting to upgrade his position is based on his contact with higher castes but I disagree that this can be done. It is too deep routed in their society but I also feel that if more people could feel the way he did - there could be little changes bad. Just like how originally in America African Americans started at the bottom with not ability to move against segregation but eventually enough people “revolted” to make a change. But this is a little different than going against a race- but just for examples sake…
Off of the Lauren and Kristen feud -
ReplyDeleteLauren, I understadn what you are saying about people living in apartments who are friends with people on 24 acres. They do not base those relationships off of economic status, but in many cases, people who would be invited to their christmas party may consist of a higher class. Just because they are family friends does not mean they would be business friends and such. We live in an area that really does not have many people who are EXTREMELY wealthy - I think when you get the the richest of the rich, this petty versus normal status becomes more apparent, and just because they are firends or their children are friends does not mean that they wish to discuss business with them or be more than just people to talk small talk at church and invite to their annual christmas party.
@Kylie
ReplyDeleteI think Bakha is just sick of being the lowest of the low. Christianity offers an opportunity of equality. I don't think he understands that the equality is in God's eyes and he that he will still have to live his life as a sweeper until Judgement Day. I do think that if Bakha converted to Christianity, this would only push him futher away from what he wants. It would make him even more untouchable because he is rejecting "their" religion. People really won't want to touch a person who cleans latrines and worships a fake God in their eyes.
Jenna, I think that is a very hard generalization to make. I have been thinking a lot about diversity as we go on to colleges, some that will be in different states. I have gone on recruit trips and I would have to say, there is much more diversity on the campuses than there is here. Not only is there more diversity, they are in the same group of friends as others. I'm not saying Arapahoe does not do this, we just do not have near as much diversity as other parts of the country. I would say the Denver area is good at accepting other races, but there are not as many in our little subur of Denver area as in many other parts of the country. I feel that we cannot make this generalization until we get out and leave the suburbs in order to experience it for ourselves.
ReplyDeleteLauren-
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that the culture in which Arapahoe kids live is relatively the same for everyone when compared with culture of people outside of the bubble. I mean that regardless of if you live in an apartment or a house in a wealthier neighborhood, your lifestyle is basically the same here because of the comforts we are given. Some people recognize this and branch out within the culture of Arapahoe, which is great, while others divide themselves based on small details. Either way, we live in a very different culture than those who live just hours away.
I agree with most of what has been said thus far about Bakha's reluctance to conversion but in addition to that I think that Hinduism provides one of the few elements of stability in Bakha's life and that he is reluctant to let go of that.
ReplyDeleteAt Brian,
ReplyDeleteI think it has to do with the fact that it is a HUGE change for Bahka to switch religions. It's not because they are so different or that Bahka finds one more appealing than the other but the fact that he's going from something he has known his entire life and grown comfortable to (even if he doesn't like it). It's like going to college for us. We're suddenly going from living with our parents to being on our own. Big changes incite hesitance.
This is Chelsea.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tony when he says that the "poor people" don't lack motivation. There are usually many other circumstances that are not allowing them to move up as successfully or quickly in some cases, but there are also cases of a lack of motivation. I think it all depends on the person and their situation and life circumstances. But at least in America we have the opportunity to move up at any point in life and with a decent chance of succeeding.
Sarah I agree, it would be extremely hard for someone to change religions. However, for me personally, if I was at the very bottom of the caste system, if I were a sweeper, the idea of Chritianity would be very appealing to me. For me, I would look for any escape from my current situation and Christianity seems to be a source for that in Bakha's situation. Also, technically I would argue that Bakha doesn't know that much about Hinduism. Not only is he not even allowed at the temple, but he also doesnt have that much knowledge of the Hindu gods. For this reason, I still am not sure why Bahka would not take more advantage of what the missionary had to say.
ReplyDelete@ BGuymon- I'm sure just about everyone who doesn't know of Jesus is skeptical about him. I'm sure it's hard for Bakha to believe that such a God actually accepts him, too. After living a life of hell on earth, I bet Bakha has a hard time believing that somebody is willing to save him.
ReplyDelete@ tony. not really, I mean it's still a choice but sometimes you can be so locked in to the point where there is a choice, but it's only a small sliver of a pie so to speak, they can also get a better education after also, or at the same time. I have no idea if that makes sense to you...it's hard to word
ReplyDeleteI agree with what meg said, that there is racial diversity everywhere in the world, but maybe not racial tension. at the same time i feel that we cannot be ignorant about how there IS some racial tension in the world. the good news is that as a people we are becoming more culturally accepting
ReplyDeleteGreat reference trent. I totally agree. I also think that that is sort of some foreshadowing for Bakha going to listen to Gandhi speak. I think it will be interesting to see Bakha's interpretation of all three religions from a Hindu perspective.
ReplyDeleteI agree with SarahW. I think that anyone who is given a new idea or a new religion would be hesitant, even if that's what they want and believe in. He's only known Hinduism and if he changes religions, the people that he is the closest to and the ones around the city will not approve. He knows that and I don't think that Bakha wants to leave everything he's known his whole life so fast. I know that I would be hesitant to leave everything behind too.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's true that we do live a very different life then people do who attend a high school just a few hours away. If you compare Arapahoe High School to a school in Aurora or Denver, you would see the differences greatly. It's so weird that just by going a few hours away how different the culture can change.
ReplyDeleteThis is Hannah.
ReplyDeleteI think ultimately success and where you end up has a lot to do with a combination of many things we have talked about. I think that is have to do with your race and ethnicity sometimes, your family, where you live, your education, your motivation and many other things. I think we are given more opportunities here and we chose to do things with them and i think people in India would do the same if they had the opportunities we do.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tony's comment. At least in Hinduism, if Bakha leads a good life, he has to chance to move up castes in the next life. If he converts to a different religion, he loses the ability to blame his social situation on bad karma, and he loses the hope the Hinduism provides him for future lives. This is not to say that converting to a new religion wouldn't help him explain his life situation, it's just to say that Hinduism is the known, and another religion is the unknown.
ReplyDeleteSam, as those people become more culturally accepting, what does that mean for all of us? The minorities? The wealthy?
ReplyDeleteAlso, why is it that we in the US are more accepting than those in India or other countries with such a strict caste?
i would have to disagree with what someone said about there being racial diversity, but not tension in the world. in america i could agree that is the case. but when you go on a global basis. theres enough hate that people within religions will eachother over slight arguements.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in response to Brian I'm not sure that at some point in the future Bakha won't convert. Its important to note that the entire novel occurs over a 24 hour period. Conversion is more often than not a gradual process and not one that many people would make in a single day especially if that day was their first exposure.
ReplyDeleteTony:
ReplyDeleteYou say he doesnt want to give it up because it gives him stability. I disagree- I dont think that this is what is keeping him from switching. I cant exactly say what is keeping him at this point but I dont think that stability is it.
To Tony
ReplyDeleteBecause someone drops out of school to care for one of their siblings doesn't mean they don't want to move up, they are just doing what they have to do. I am sure they still want to succeed but because of their love for their sybling they are will to potentially give up their success to ensure the succecss of their sibling.
I agree with hannah that many people are born into bad situations and cannot help it. This is like bakah's family, who is in extreme poverty. he can work honest work all his life and never gain as much money as the majority of the world will make. this is sad and i feel like is a main reason that i do not like the caste system
ReplyDeleteWhat would Bahka's problems be if he converted to Christianity and didn't stick with his Hindu caste?
ReplyDeleteSam, as those people become more culturally accepting, what does that mean for all of us? The minorities? The wealthy?
ReplyDeleteAlso, why is it that we in the US are more accepting than those in India or other countries with such a strict caste?
Brian, I do agree and know that Bakha has little to no understanding of the Hindu religion of which he has been raised, but although it is not stated I think it is a [art of his mother that he is not willing to let go of. His father is very abusive to him, and the little bit he has spoken about his mother seems to be with fond memories. He said that she always used to pray to the Gods and maybe he thinks that remaining faithful to Hinduism would somehow keep part of his mother close to him.
ReplyDeleteMegan, I agree that it might not be best for him to switch religions now because at least in his religion he has a chance at moving up in his next life. But, I would also consider his situation. Bakha is at the very bottom of society already. I know Mr. Cambell mentioned the possibilities of being born in the next life as something lower than a sweeper, however, I still think that taking the chance of converting religions is a good one. If he makes the wrong decision, he won't lose much in the next life. If it is the right decision, he could potentially change his situation greatly.
ReplyDeleteAt Trent,
ReplyDeleteHe'd have to be human and subjected to being out casted by his family. We saw how he took being beaten. He withdrew from his friends and he'll withdraw even further into himself if he his family is taken from him.
Sarah. Good point. That connection between Bakha and Hinduism would be even greater. He not only is surrounded by the culture of it constantly but it is his last connection to his mother. I think that that will keep him from changing to any other religion or system of casts.
ReplyDelete