I think that Gilgamesh depends a lot on Enkidu and it brought the idea of death closer to Gilgamesh which scares him, Enkidu and Gilgamesh also built a strong friendship.
I think he partially grieved because of his longing for Enkidu becasue that was his first real firend. It also made death more of a reality and showed him that he really is not immortal.
I think Gilamesh sees himself in Enkidu. They are eachothers' counterparts and seeing Enkidu die so easily made Gilamesh realized how effortlessly he could die too. I think it was also the shock of seeing a person so polwerful die scared him. Gilamesh has an ego and thinks himself invincable. He knows Enkidu is strong from their fight in Tablet 2, and Enkidu died.
I have a question. How is the Mesopotamian view on death similar or different from ours? Why does Gilgamiesh try to evade death? Is this different from our modern pursuits of immortality?
I think to coltons question that he was greiving because he had a very close bond with him. Also i think that it was partially that he was very very uneasy of the fact that he may noe be able to defeat death and live forever. The gods let inkadu die so why wouldnt they him. Along with that gilgamesh failed the sleeping test witch i think forshowdoes his soon to come demise.
I agree with hjohnson, but to expand farther, I believe that Gilgamesh's journey was more based on selfishness rather than that fact that is close friend had died.
I think that women have the standard of being either harlot's or prostitutes. They were used to manipulate for the betterment of other people not for themselves.
For the question on the inner circle, I think that Gilgamesh’s journey was more because he knew he was going to die than for Enkidu’s death. I know that Enkidu and Gilgamesh grew close, but I don’t feel Gilgamesh would have gone on this journey at the end if it weren’t for his own personal gain. When Gilgamesh saw Enkidu die, I think it was an eye opener to him that he could die too because he and Enkidu were so similar. Then through this fear of dying, he went on this journey.
I think that Gilgamesh was grieving both because Enkadu was killed and that he found out that he was going to die. I think he might feel guilty because Enkadu was chosen to die first, when they were both involved. But, I also think because he saw how Enkadu died, he may be scared of his own death. Knowing he is going to die would be scary. But, I think he could've handled it better. I think he should've lived his last days to the fullest, not let himself become a mess.
I was also wondering what Kristien asked, i dont't understand why Gilgamesh was so afraid of dying? and why is their society is being immortal such a bad thing?
I think that Gilgamesh was very humbled because of the death of Enkidu and it showed to him that he himself could die also. He was also very sad because he had lost a great friend.
I think that Gilgamesh grevies for the death of his friend Enkidu. It says in the poem that Gilgamesh cries for Enkidu for six days and seven nights. Enkidu's death does not only bring saddness to Gilgamesh, he also realizes that he is just as mortal as Enkidu.
What would being immortal accomplish for Gilgamesh? He goes on this odyssey type quest all the way across the world to go talk to the immortal human, to see how he can become immortal, but i don't know why. It won't bring Enkindu back from the dead, which i think is what he wants. Is he afraid of death?
In response to Megan, I agree that Gilgamesh is selfish. He went on an extensive journey just to realize that he was not worthy of eternal life. He had not sacrificed or contributed anything that makes him honorable. Yet he is still trying to save his soul from death without trying the save the lives of others.
I agree with kristan. in this story they seem to be valued more highly than in Ramayana where Sita would come off as helpless and would only rely on Rama to save her
I think that maybe Gilgamesh's selfishness and they way he acted through out his life is making him afradi of death becasue he now has to face to face and isn't sure with life after death is going to like for him due to all of the bad things he has done.
I think that in this epic, women are seen as the problem. I noticed that all throughout the plot, people were trying to fix something that a woman had done.
Kristin- I think what makes us afraid of death is uncertainty. We know so much about the past, and nothing about the future. We know so much about Earth, and nothing about heaven. There is no proof that there even is a heaven. So, I think that not knowing what is there scares us. Maybe Gilgamesh was scared because in the God's eyes, he did some bad things in his life. Maybe he thought he would be punished in his after-life and didn't want to face it.
For Kristen's question. I think that the mesopotamian vew of death is very similar to ours. Gilgamesh is so afrais of death and I think that is very prevelant in our society as well. People are constantly try to race the clock and complete too much before they die when death in not always the end. It also really bothered me how afraid of death Gilgamesh was. I thought that he was supposed to be a hero and it is refreching to see him show weakness, but at the same time it really bothered me that all he thought about was death.
Kristen F., I think that Gilgamesh’s pursuit of immortality is very similar to ours in the modern world. I think that one of people’s greatest fears is death. Gilgamesh is part god and has never been afraid of anything. This is seen in his battle against the bull and Humbaba. However, he was only able to accomplish these things with Enkidu. Once Enkidu died, Gilgamesh was reminded about death and just like us became afraid and wanted to live forever. I think it is interesting that the one thing Gilgamesh risks, his life, in these extreme situations is the same thing he fears most.
Going off of Kristen F.'s question I believe people are afraid of death because we don't know what to expect. Death is an unknown and there really is not much we can do to prepare for it. Gilgamesh was afraid of death because he did not know what would happen to him.
Responding the CourtneyQ's question, I do not believe it is right for Gilgamesh to go on a journey in hopes of gaining immortality. Utnapishtim, the old man that survived the flood, gained his immortality by his heroic act of saving the human race. Gilgamesh's hopes of immortality seem to be out of selfishness, and he asked to live forever rather than being granted it by performing a heroic act.
Women seem to play many roles in this society, and play many roles in the Epic. We see the mother who is a positive influence, manipulating her sons but also caring for them while not asserting too much power. Shamat is the temptress, who arguably "ruins" Enkidu with her feminine wiles. Then there is the vain goddess who wreaks havoc with her fickle and greedy ways. It is clear that in this society, women who help, support and guide men are thought highly of, while women who seek to controll men are bad.
I disagree with Daniel. In the Ramayana, Sita is made to helpless but she is valued more than most treasure and Rama makes sure that she is safe and happy at all times. In Gilgamesh, women are used for their appeal to men and ability to manipulate others to do their bidding. They are seen only for sex and for men to gain something in life.
Are humans meant to attain a god-like stature? Why is Gilgamesh, although he is two-thirds, god, unable to reach a state of immortality? What does this suggest about how life should be lived?
I don't understand why he is so afraid of death. In the beginning of his journey he was ready to go kill Humbaba and he didn't think about the risks. Just because Enkidu died I wouldnt think it would relly change his attitude towards his journey. I personally think he wants to be remembered for more than going on a journey. I think that he wants immortality for vain reasons to basically boost his ego.
to tony's thing about 6day ans 7 nights i think it is a biblical thing also. god created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and 6 nights and he rested on the 7th day.
Megan, I agree that woman have been seen as a problem in this story and in other stories we have read as well. But I would also like to say that I thought one woman, Shamhat, had power and was actually the solution to a problem in part of this story. The original problem was from Enkidu ruining the hunter’s traps. Shamhat was the solution in taking Enkidu away from the wild.
To Danielle T.'s question I think Rama's and Gilgamesh's egos impaire their judgements rather than making them stronger. As their egos grow they become more cocky and underestimate the rest of the world.
Do the events of the loss of Enkidu's innocence also seem to hold several similarites to the story of adam and eve? He was perfectly happy before being drawn in by the Harlot who can represent temptation and the events following lead to his death. very similar to adam and eve where they were in paradise until tempation toke hold and they were banished from their paradise.
To Kristen's question about being God-like. I think that Gilgamesh can never become a full god is because of his reasons. He wants to become a God so that he can aviod death, not so he can better society. I think that if he were to want a God-like status for selfless reasons it would have been more likely for him to attain it.
I agree with you about the view of women that the book suggests. In the book, while the prostitute that domesticated Enkidu seemed to have power in persuading Enkidu to join her and leave the wild, his domestication led to an end of his happiness and, eventually, death. It also seemed to me that women were viewed a property.
I think that the Mesopotamian view on death is really similar to how we see death in our society today, because most people are afraid of dying but don't really know how to escape it. I think that the view of death would be similar in a lot of societies because we don't really know what happens after we die and I think that the unknown scares us.
along with the biblical refrences, the snake took the plant. the plant was going to give gilgamesh eternal life of happiness and bliss. in the bible the serpant basically took away the same thing to all humans for generations to come. he tempted adam and eve to eat the forbiden apple and with doing so sin was basically created. the serpant/snake is a huge represetation of dreams and mortality coming to an end in my mind.
In response to Kristen's question, I think in the Mesopotamian religions, part mortals are still just mortals. Gilamesh is 2/3 god, but end the end of the epic, it seems like the gods want to show him that he will always be mortal. Death will always be part of his life. He is no better than a good, not even equal. I think the poeple of Mesopotamia, gods are all powerful and human have no control. That humans are only part of the gods... almost play things. We are simply there for assumement.
I think that an ego always impairs judgement in the sense that it makes people believe that they are better than they actually are. Meaning that they think that they are stronger or better prepared than they actually are.
No Jenna, you're not lost. Gilgamesh did come before the Bible, yet there are many similarities between Gilgamesh and biblical stories. What do you think this suggests about human tendencies?
I think that this epic poem reflects how we live today. At the time the poem was written this probably wasn't true. Kristen mentioned that Gilgamesh is selfish. He only cares about saving his own life and gaining immortality for himself. He even is willing to eliminate others to achieve his goals (the stone ones). Today, with new technology and new medicine, people are trying to live forever. The fear of death is huge in our society, enough that people would live in hospitals, barely able to move instead of passing away. Not everyone is like this but this trend exists in more developed countries.
@Danielle
I think that for Rama, his ego benifits him. He is still somewhat humble, even with all of his power and he still achieves his goals. Gilgamesh however, only cares about himself. I think that Gilgamesh's ego hurts him in his chances at gaining immortality.
I agree with Katie H., I think death in this story is veiwed similarly to the way people in our society veiw death. Death makes you think about the way you have lived your life and weather or not it has been good enough to get you where you want to be after life. And i think Gilgamesh is struggling with that unknown, especially becasue he feels like he should be mortal.
Does enkindu wish that he was never civilized by the prostitute? On one side he made a friend in Gilgamesh, but he died because of it and he was happy in the forest. Would rather be blissfully ignorant or know whats going on even if it makes you sad?
It suggests that humans take things from other civilizations and make them our own. They use them in a way that suits their religion and thus the similiarities are seen.
Daniel, I think this is an interesting question to answer. I think that Gilgamesh has all of the qualities of a hero. He is strong, fearless, part god, etc. However, I have felt an underlying tone of selfishness from Gilgamesh throughout the text. Before Enkidu, Gilgamesh was certainly selfish with how he treated women. At the end of the story, I thought he was very selfish as well with his journey for immortality. To me, a hero helps himself but also thinks of others and I feel that Gilgamesh’s selfishness does not make him a true hero.
I agree with what Sarah said. I think that Gilgamesh seems very self-centered throughout the whole book. Although it appears that he and Endiku became friends, do you think that he could've been using him to gain strength in his fights? Then, in the end he goes to gain immortality for himself, so he doesn't have to die and face the Gods just as Endiku did. What makes him think that he of all people should deserve the best? What makes people think they have authority over others?
I agree with Connor. This Epic really shows how we live and act today. We all want to be the best but we also have to go through times of sorrow and pain.
Going off of Daneil's comment, I also saw the resmblance of Gilgamesh to Noah's Arc. I don't know if they were maybe based off of eachother but there are many similarities. In the end Gilgamesh builds a boat and puts all of his belongings and animals, and everything esle that he could fist on the boat much the the Christian Noah.
I wouldn't classify Gilgamesh as a hero. When I think of a hero I visualize someone who goes on a journey to save someone or accomplish something that will help people. I think that Gilgamesh got bored and wanted to go on an adventure. He never did anything heroic. Never once did he sacrifice himself. Gilgamesh always had an ego and wanted to prove to the world how great he was. He had to take a step back when Enkidu died but he still but his ego and deepest wishes first.
A true hero, in the archetypal form, DOES have a tragic flaw, whether it be greed or kryptonite. Gilgamesh's is selfishness. So yes, I do see him as a hero.
I wouldn't call Gilgamesh a hero, because to me it just seems like he's trying to do all of these things just for himself. For example, when Enkidu and Gilgamesh kill the bull and when they kill Humbaba I think that they just kill them because they wanted to, not because they had a good reason to or were helping someone by killing them. They were only doing it for themselves and I don't think think that that makes a hero.
The Enuma Elish revealed that the gods viewed humans a sheep, while they themselves where the shepards. In The Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods tried to show their superiority over mortals (even if they are only 1/3 mortal)by not granting Gilgamesh immortality. I think that the gods believed themselves to be many levels above humans, and they were very reluctant to bring mortals up to their level.
I agree that Gilgamesh is a hero, he follows the heros journey and the criteria, we just tend to look at his negatives becasue they are highlighted so we don't necessarily want to view him as a hero.
To Kristen F.'s question I think Enkidu was more accepting of fate and death because he lived as a part of nature for a majority of his life and death is a part of nature. Enkidu understood it and knew it was going to happen and just accepted it rather than trying to fight it like Gilgamesh did.
To Kristen: Can a hero really be selfish? Arent they supposed to help others or better the world in some way? They can't be a hero if they only do things for their own good.
Yes Kristen like I said I think that Gilgamesh is a hero in the archetypal sense. I should clarify and say that my own personal definition of a hero is a person who is not selfish. Of all the tragic flaws, I feel that this is one that would definitely make someone not a hero. I think heroes think of others first. Therefore, Gilgamesh is not a true hero to me.
Answering Moritz's question i think that people do use death sometimes to gain sympethy etc., either by taking their own lives to "prove a point" or to get others to treat them a certain way becasue they are experiencing death in their lives.
So based on your definition Rama would fit your definition of a hero perfectly? He goes on a journey to save Sita. He suffers a loss on his journey. Would you agree?
I agree with Lauren. I think it is important for humans to not lose touch with the natural cycles of life. In my own experiences, it is easier to accept the unknown and the unexpected if you recognize it as something that is part of life. I don't believe in mourning some one's life in a traditional sense. I believe in celebrating it and amplifying that person's legacy
this is phil posting as jason kearns. i think that we can't isolate only death as an excuse for our own means to get what we want. While humans truly mourn over death we also take it into huge advantage to use the situation at hands. but we also use any excuse to get what we want. while we may not do this 100% of the time, we do serve our own selfish means on occassion
I agree with Brian. He does follow the jounrey but nothing he does makes his a true hero. I personally wouldn't pick Gilgamesh to be my hero. I really didn't see anything that someone should look up to. Yes, he was upset with Enkidu's death and made a big ordeal about making Enkidu remembered but he did nothing that portrayed good character and would make me want to look up to him. When I think of hero's they make mistakes but they fix them and learn from them. In don't think Gilgamesh really ever learned a lesson. He gave up on immortality when the snake ate the plant. He gave up because he didn't remember where he got it, not because he learned a lesson. He is still vain in my eyes.
I think that it depends on your view of a hero. Some people view a hero as someone who defeats monsters, is royalty and lives an elaborate and rich life. Other people agree that a hero has to generally help a person or humanity.
I believe that Gilgamesh isn't a hero. I believe a hero is a person that helps others or does things that benefit others. Gilgamesh doesn't really help anyone, even when he slays the monsters. He kills the Bull because he had to. Even thought the Bull was hurting others, I believe that Gilgamesh was more interested in saving his own life, even over Enkidu.
I absolutely don't think people "milk" a death of someone to benefit themselves. I have lost many close family members in the past few years. I have never used my family's death to my advantage. It's almost embarrassing having people know about my family's history because it's what people remember me for. In elementary school, everyone tried to baby me when my mom died. Then years later in the beginning of high school, I would say hi to people I hadn't seen since 5th grade. Most didn't remember me until they realized I was the girl with one parent. It's not fun and I don't understand how people could do that. Try to benefit off of a death. I think most people who have come in contact with a close death will tell you it's not fun and couldn't even consider using death as an excuse.
I think that some people do use the death of others as an excuse to get what they want. In fact I think that people use any bad situation as an excuse to get attention or other things that we want. Everyday we see situations like this plastered all over our televisions and newspapers of how people take advantage of a bad situation.
I agree with moritz's question but only to an extent. I think that some people do us death as a catalyst to gain something but i think it is more commonly used by some older people or someone a generation above our own as a way to almost guilt a younger individual into doing something.
Kristen: I think that Gilgamesh has many characteristics that define a hero. He is royalty, he is strong and brave and he is a leader. He is also proud and stubborn, these are usually highly revered in heroes because without these qualities they would not be heroes. It is how these heroes use their traits that determine how they are viewed. If Gilgamesh were a modern day hero, he would be revered and lionized to us and we would ignore his faults, for better or worse because we would need him to be a hero weather or not he really was one.
I think that Rama is a hero. He suffers from loosing Sita and goes to save her. He puts her first instead of himself. I don't think anyone can ever be a perfect hero because in reality they are people. No one is perfect. But Rama put Sita first. He went on his journey to save her and make the world a better place. In the end he did get something he wanted(Sita) but his misson was to save her. Gilgamesh goes on his journey for his own personal wants.
Answering Moritz's question, I do think that people use death to get things that they want in life. I think that we don't like to think that people would actually do this and we believe them to have good morals and know the difference between what's right and wrong but there are people out there that aren't really who they say they are. People will do almost anything to help themselves out in life and I think that using death as a way to get what you want is a really twisted way to do it.
Kaytlin, I agree that people will use death as a way of getting attention or gaining sympathy. However, I don’t think this is always used in a bad way. For example, if someone is killed through drunk driving, people will use the attention this death will get as a way of warning people about its dangers and hopefully prevent future accidents. My point being, death will always be an attention getter because of the importance or society puts on it. It is the decision of people for how we view death and how we use it.
I completely agree. I have gone through points where I didn't want people to know someone had died because to me sympathy in large amount can almost delay the process of moving on because it forces you to bring back memories that you dont wnat to forget but more repress.
Humans are greedy, selfish and overall imperfect creatures. People use other people, situations and actions all for their own advantage. It's basic human nature to beat out the other person; to survive. Not everyone does something like use a loved one's death for their own gain but there are such people out there. There are even worse things that are done by people for their own gain. People are overall seen as a destructive force. A select few of the entire race look back and feel guilt for what has been done and then it is tried to fix. Then there is a select few that are seeing the bad before it happens and trying to change it. It is our nature to destroy and build more for our reputations and lives. It doesnt matter who is in our way, even those select few people looking for good, we will get to the top and do it with what ever means necessecary.
I would say Gilgamesh is a tragic hero. I think the great thing he did was proove that people can change. He used to take advantage of women, and after he met Enkidu he put more effort into killing the evil. Maybe this was so he would appear heroic and become a true hero, but it was also helping he people. His flaw, as many have said, was that he was self centered. This affected a lot of what he did, but through trying to better himself, he helped others as well. He showed Gilgamesh a whole new life and made friends with him. He is not the typical "Hercules" hero, that puts everyone else before himself and is very likeable. However, he is the hero that wants to become the best he can be.
I dont think that Gilgamesh is a tragic hero. He does have some of the traits of a tragic hero, but he does not follow the plot of a tragic hero. I can see that you could argue that Enkidu was his flaw, but Gilgamesh never listened to him and never seemed to appreciate him that much untill he died, he mourns, but he is very selfish about the whole thing. He does not really fall, and he never really redeems himself, as well as never realizing what he did wrong.
I don't think that many people use the death of others to get ahead in their own life, but I think that sometimes people can use their own immortality to their advantage. When the question was asked I thought more about stories of people who are told that they only have say three months to live. A lot of times people use that as a motive to finally do everything that they wanted to do in life and I don't really like that idea. I think it is sad that people have to wait for death to do what they want. I also think that sometimes when a time limit is put on a life it is used to live in excessive ways which I also don't understand. There is nothing wrong with living simply and I think there is something to look forward to after death.
I do not see Gilgamesh as a hero because he really did not save or help anone but himself. I believe his purpose for going on the journey was more for personal gain rather than to benefit others. He started the journey very carefree just wanting to kill Humbaba becasue he thought he could rather than becasue he should to make the forest safe for all the animals and people living there. He also did not look out for Enkidu and his wants because he did not even want to go on the journey to begin with.
I can think of many modern heros that aren't selfish. The firefighters, police men and women, and all other people that ran into the buildings on September 11 were by no means selfish. Sure they had the right to protect themselves and get out before the buildings went down, but very few of them did. Many of them forgot about their own lives in order to save the lives of others.
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ReplyDeleteWhat does The Epic of Gilgamesh reval about women in the Babylonian society?
ReplyDeleteI think that Gilgamesh depends a lot on Enkidu and it brought the idea of death closer to Gilgamesh which scares him, Enkidu and Gilgamesh also built a strong friendship.
ReplyDeleteI think he partially grieved because of his longing for Enkidu becasue that was his first real firend. It also made death more of a reality and showed him that he really is not immortal.
ReplyDeleteI think it shows that women had some value in society, which waqs rare for a civilization at the time.
ReplyDeleteI think Gilamesh sees himself in Enkidu. They are eachothers' counterparts and seeing Enkidu die so easily made Gilamesh realized how effortlessly he could die too. I think it was also the shock of seeing a person so polwerful die scared him. Gilamesh has an ego and thinks himself invincable. He knows Enkidu is strong from their fight in Tablet 2, and Enkidu died.
ReplyDeleteIf that makes sense.
I have a question. How is the Mesopotamian view on death similar or different from ours? Why does Gilgamiesh try to evade death? Is this different from our modern pursuits of immortality?
ReplyDeleteI think to coltons question that he was greiving because he had a very close bond with him. Also i think that it was partially that he was very very uneasy of the fact that he may noe be able to defeat death and live forever. The gods let inkadu die so why wouldnt they him. Along with that gilgamesh failed the sleeping test witch i think forshowdoes his soon to come demise.
ReplyDeleteI agree with hjohnson, but to expand farther, I believe that Gilgamesh's journey was more based on selfishness rather than that fact that is close friend had died.
ReplyDeleteI think that women have the standard of being either harlot's or prostitutes. They were used to manipulate for the betterment of other people not for themselves.
ReplyDeleteFor the question on the inner circle, I think that Gilgamesh’s journey was more because he knew he was going to die than for Enkidu’s death. I know that Enkidu and Gilgamesh grew close, but I don’t feel Gilgamesh would have gone on this journey at the end if it weren’t for his own personal gain. When Gilgamesh saw Enkidu die, I think it was an eye opener to him that he could die too because he and Enkidu were so similar. Then through this fear of dying, he went on this journey.
ReplyDeleteI think that Gilgamesh was grieving both because Enkadu was killed and that he found out that he was going to die. I think he might feel guilty because Enkadu was chosen to die first, when they were both involved. But, I also think because he saw how Enkadu died, he may be scared of his own death. Knowing he is going to die would be scary. But, I think he could've handled it better. I think he should've lived his last days to the fullest, not let himself become a mess.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tony. I skip many of the stanzas during the Dream Sequence because it was so repetative and the ritual made no sense in our modern world.
ReplyDeleteI was also wondering what Kristien asked, i dont't understand why Gilgamesh was so afraid of dying? and why is their society is being immortal such a bad thing?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hannah but is it right of Gilamesh to go on a journey to seek out Uta-napishti to gain immortality because of Enkidu's death?
ReplyDeleteMore specifically, what aspect of death makes us afraid?
ReplyDeleteI think that Gilgamesh was very humbled because of the death of Enkidu and it showed to him that he himself could die also. He was also very sad because he had lost a great friend.
ReplyDeleteQuestion:
ReplyDeleteDo Gilamesh's and Rama's egos impair their judgements or make them stronger?
I think that Gilgamesh grevies for the death of his friend Enkidu. It says in the poem that Gilgamesh cries for Enkidu for six days and seven nights. Enkidu's death does not only bring saddness to Gilgamesh, he also realizes that he is just as mortal as Enkidu.
ReplyDeleteWhat would being immortal accomplish for Gilgamesh? He goes on this odyssey type quest all the way across the world to go talk to the immortal human, to see how he can become immortal, but i don't know why. It won't bring Enkindu back from the dead, which i think is what he wants. Is he afraid of death?
ReplyDeleteIn response to Megan, I agree that Gilgamesh is selfish. He went on an extensive journey just to realize that he was not worthy of eternal life. He had not sacrificed or contributed anything that makes him honorable. Yet he is still trying to save his soul from death without trying the save the lives of others.
ReplyDeleteI agree with kristan. in this story they seem to be valued more highly than in Ramayana where Sita would come off as helpless and would only rely on Rama to save her
ReplyDeleteI think that maybe Gilgamesh's selfishness and they way he acted through out his life is making him afradi of death becasue he now has to face to face and isn't sure with life after death is going to like for him due to all of the bad things he has done.
ReplyDeleteMeganOD-
ReplyDeleteI think that in this epic, women are seen as the problem. I noticed that all throughout the plot, people were trying to fix something that a woman had done.
Kristin- I think what makes us afraid of death is uncertainty. We know so much about the past, and nothing about the future. We know so much about Earth, and nothing about heaven. There is no proof that there even is a heaven. So, I think that not knowing what is there scares us. Maybe Gilgamesh was scared because in the God's eyes, he did some bad things in his life. Maybe he thought he would be punished in his after-life and didn't want to face it.
ReplyDeleteFor Kristen's question. I think that the mesopotamian vew of death is very similar to ours. Gilgamesh is so afrais of death and I think that is very prevelant in our society as well. People are constantly try to race the clock and complete too much before they die when death in not always the end. It also really bothered me how afraid of death Gilgamesh was. I thought that he was supposed to be a hero and it is refreching to see him show weakness, but at the same time it really bothered me that all he thought about was death.
ReplyDeleteKristen F., I think that Gilgamesh’s pursuit of immortality is very similar to ours in the modern world. I think that one of people’s greatest fears is death. Gilgamesh is part god and has never been afraid of anything. This is seen in his battle against the bull and Humbaba. However, he was only able to accomplish these things with Enkidu. Once Enkidu died, Gilgamesh was reminded about death and just like us became afraid and wanted to live forever. I think it is interesting that the one thing Gilgamesh risks, his life, in these extreme situations is the same thing he fears most.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Kristen F.'s question I believe people are afraid of death because we don't know what to expect. Death is an unknown and there really is not much we can do to prepare for it. Gilgamesh was afraid of death because he did not know what would happen to him.
ReplyDeleteResponding the CourtneyQ's question, I do not believe it is right for Gilgamesh to go on a journey in hopes of gaining immortality. Utnapishtim, the old man that survived the flood, gained his immortality by his heroic act of saving the human race. Gilgamesh's hopes of immortality seem to be out of selfishness, and he asked to live forever rather than being granted it by performing a heroic act.
ReplyDeleteWomen seem to play many roles in this society, and play many roles in the Epic. We see the mother who is a positive influence, manipulating her sons but also caring for them while not asserting too much power. Shamat is the temptress, who arguably "ruins" Enkidu with her feminine wiles. Then there is the vain goddess who wreaks havoc with her fickle and greedy ways. It is clear that in this society, women who help, support and guide men are thought highly of, while women who seek to controll men are bad.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Daniel. In the Ramayana, Sita is made to helpless but she is valued more than most treasure and Rama makes sure that she is safe and happy at all times. In Gilgamesh, women are used for their appeal to men and ability to manipulate others to do their bidding. They are seen only for sex and for men to gain something in life.
ReplyDeleteAre humans meant to attain a god-like stature? Why is Gilgamesh, although he is two-thirds, god, unable to reach a state of immortality? What does this suggest about how life should be lived?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why he is so afraid of death. In the beginning of his journey he was ready to go kill Humbaba and he didn't think about the risks. Just because Enkidu died I wouldnt think it would relly change his attitude towards his journey. I personally think he wants to be remembered for more than going on a journey. I think that he wants immortality for vain reasons to basically boost his ego.
ReplyDeleteTo Kristen's Question- If human's were able to become Gods, then the Gods wouldnt be so special.
ReplyDeleteto tony's thing about 6day ans 7 nights i think it is a biblical thing also. god created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and 6 nights and he rested on the 7th day.
ReplyDeleteMegan, I agree that woman have been seen as a problem in this story and in other stories we have read as well. But I would also like to say that I thought one woman, Shamhat, had power and was actually the solution to a problem in part of this story. The original problem was from Enkidu ruining the hunter’s traps. Shamhat was the solution in taking Enkidu away from the wild.
ReplyDeleteI have a question. Didn't Gilgamesh come before the Bible? Or am I just lost?
ReplyDeleteI think this story has a lot of relations to christianity, the 7 days, the snake, the flood near the end of the story and i'm sure more instances.
ReplyDeleteTo Danielle T.'s question I think Rama's and Gilgamesh's egos impaire their judgements rather than making them stronger. As their egos grow they become more cocky and underestimate the rest of the world.
ReplyDeleteWould you call Gilgamesh a hero?
ReplyDeleteand
Do the events of the loss of Enkidu's innocence also seem to hold several similarites to the story of adam and eve? He was perfectly happy before being drawn in by the Harlot who can represent temptation and the events following lead to his death. very similar to adam and eve where they were in paradise until tempation toke hold and they were banished from their paradise.
To Kristen's question about being God-like. I think that Gilgamesh can never become a full god is because of his reasons. He wants to become a God so that he can aviod death, not so he can better society. I think that if he were to want a God-like status for selfless reasons it would have been more likely for him to attain it.
ReplyDeleteKaytlinr
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about the view of women that the book suggests. In the book, while the prostitute that domesticated Enkidu seemed to have power in persuading Enkidu to join her and leave the wild, his domestication led to an end of his happiness and, eventually, death. It also seemed to me that women were viewed a property.
I think that the Mesopotamian view on death is really similar to how we see death in our society today, because most people are afraid of dying but don't really know how to escape it. I think that the view of death would be similar in a lot of societies because we don't really know what happens after we die and I think that the unknown scares us.
ReplyDeletealong with the biblical refrences, the snake took the plant. the plant was going to give gilgamesh eternal life of happiness and bliss. in the bible the serpant basically took away the same thing to all humans for generations to come. he tempted adam and eve to eat the forbiden apple and with doing so sin was basically created. the serpant/snake is a huge represetation of dreams and mortality coming to an end in my mind.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Kristen's question, I think in the Mesopotamian religions, part mortals are still just mortals. Gilamesh is 2/3 god, but end the end of the epic, it seems like the gods want to show him that he will always be mortal. Death will always be part of his life. He is no better than a good, not even equal. I think the poeple of Mesopotamia, gods are all powerful and human have no control. That humans are only part of the gods... almost play things. We are simply there for assumement.
ReplyDeleteto my first question about gilgamesh being a hero. why would you classify him as a hero or not? what actions or traits lead you to this decision?
ReplyDeleteGood question Dani!
ReplyDeleteI think that an ego always impairs judgement in the sense that it makes people believe that they are better than they actually are. Meaning that they think that they are stronger or better prepared than they actually are.
No Jenna, you're not lost. Gilgamesh did come before the Bible, yet there are many similarities between Gilgamesh and biblical stories. What do you think this suggests about human tendencies?
ReplyDeleteTo go off of what Kristen said:
ReplyDeleteI think that this epic poem reflects how we live today. At the time the poem was written this probably wasn't true. Kristen mentioned that Gilgamesh is selfish. He only cares about saving his own life and gaining immortality for himself. He even is willing to eliminate others to achieve his goals (the stone ones). Today, with new technology and new medicine, people are trying to live forever. The fear of death is huge in our society, enough that people would live in hospitals, barely able to move instead of passing away. Not everyone is like this but this trend exists in more developed countries.
@Danielle
I think that for Rama, his ego benifits him. He is still somewhat humble, even with all of his power and he still achieves his goals. Gilgamesh however, only cares about himself. I think that Gilgamesh's ego hurts him in his chances at gaining immortality.
I agree with Katie H., I think death in this story is veiwed similarly to the way people in our society veiw death. Death makes you think about the way you have lived your life and weather or not it has been good enough to get you where you want to be after life. And i think Gilgamesh is struggling with that unknown, especially becasue he feels like he should be mortal.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Enkidu did not fear his own death in the same sense that Gilgamesh did. Why was he more accepting of fate?
ReplyDeleteDoes enkindu wish that he was never civilized by the prostitute? On one side he made a friend in Gilgamesh, but he died because of it and he was happy in the forest. Would rather be blissfully ignorant or know whats going on even if it makes you sad?
ReplyDeleteThanks.
ReplyDeleteIt suggests that humans take things from other civilizations and make them our own. They use them in a way that suits their religion and thus the similiarities are seen.
Daniel, I think this is an interesting question to answer. I think that Gilgamesh has all of the qualities of a hero. He is strong, fearless, part god, etc. However, I have felt an underlying tone of selfishness from Gilgamesh throughout the text. Before Enkidu, Gilgamesh was certainly selfish with how he treated women. At the end of the story, I thought he was very selfish as well with his journey for immortality. To me, a hero helps himself but also thinks of others and I feel that Gilgamesh’s selfishness does not make him a true hero.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Sarah said. I think that Gilgamesh seems very self-centered throughout the whole book. Although it appears that he and Endiku became friends, do you think that he could've been using him to gain strength in his fights? Then, in the end he goes to gain immortality for himself, so he doesn't have to die and face the Gods just as Endiku did. What makes him think that he of all people should deserve the best? What makes people think they have authority over others?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Connor. This Epic really shows how we live and act today. We all want to be the best but we also have to go through times of sorrow and pain.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Daneil's comment, I also saw the resmblance of Gilgamesh to Noah's Arc. I don't know if they were maybe based off of eachother but there are many similarities. In the end Gilgamesh builds a boat and puts all of his belongings and animals, and everything esle that he could fist on the boat much the the Christian Noah.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't classify Gilgamesh as a hero. When I think of a hero I visualize someone who goes on a journey to save someone or accomplish something that will help people. I think that Gilgamesh got bored and wanted to go on an adventure. He never did anything heroic. Never once did he sacrifice himself. Gilgamesh always had an ego and wanted to prove to the world how great he was. He had to take a step back when Enkidu died but he still but his ego and deepest wishes first.
ReplyDeleteA true hero, in the archetypal form, DOES have a tragic flaw, whether it be greed or kryptonite. Gilgamesh's is selfishness. So yes, I do see him as a hero.
ReplyDeleteWe have talked about Gilgamesh's flaws. But does he have any redeeming qualities? Perhaps any that are prevalent today as well?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call Gilgamesh a hero, because to me it just seems like he's trying to do all of these things just for himself. For example, when Enkidu and Gilgamesh kill the bull and when they kill Humbaba I think that they just kill them because they wanted to, not because they had a good reason to or were helping someone by killing them. They were only doing it for themselves and I don't think think that that makes a hero.
ReplyDeleteThe Enuma Elish revealed that the gods viewed humans a sheep, while they themselves where the shepards. In The Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods tried to show their superiority over mortals (even if they are only 1/3 mortal)by not granting Gilgamesh immortality. I think that the gods believed themselves to be many levels above humans, and they were very reluctant to bring mortals up to their level.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Gilgamesh is a hero, he follows the heros journey and the criteria, we just tend to look at his negatives becasue they are highlighted so we don't necessarily want to view him as a hero.
ReplyDeleteTo Kristen F.'s question I think Enkidu was more accepting of fate and death because he lived as a part of nature for a majority of his life and death is a part of nature. Enkidu understood it and knew it was going to happen and just accepted it rather than trying to fight it like Gilgamesh did.
ReplyDeleteTo Kristen:
ReplyDeleteCan a hero really be selfish? Arent they supposed to help others or better the world in some way? They can't be a hero if they only do things for their own good.
Yes Kristen like I said I think that Gilgamesh is a hero in the archetypal sense. I should clarify and say that my own personal definition of a hero is a person who is not selfish. Of all the tragic flaws, I feel that this is one that would definitely make someone not a hero. I think heroes think of others first. Therefore, Gilgamesh is not a true hero to me.
ReplyDeleteAnswering Moritz's question i think that people do use death sometimes to gain sympethy etc., either by taking their own lives to "prove a point" or to get others to treat them a certain way becasue they are experiencing death in their lives.
ReplyDelete@CourtneyQ.
ReplyDeleteSo based on your definition Rama would fit your definition of a hero perfectly? He goes on a journey to save Sita. He suffers a loss on his journey. Would you agree?
I agree with Lauren. I think it is important for humans to not lose touch with the natural cycles of life. In my own experiences, it is easier to accept the unknown and the unexpected if you recognize it as something that is part of life. I don't believe in mourning some one's life in a traditional sense. I believe in celebrating it and amplifying that person's legacy
ReplyDeletethis is phil posting as jason kearns. i think that we can't isolate only death as an excuse for our own means to get what we want. While humans truly mourn over death we also take it into huge advantage to use the situation at hands. but we also use any excuse to get what we want. while we may not do this 100% of the time, we do serve our own selfish means on occassion
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brian. He does follow the jounrey but nothing he does makes his a true hero. I personally wouldn't pick Gilgamesh to be my hero. I really didn't see anything that someone should look up to. Yes, he was upset with Enkidu's death and made a big ordeal about making Enkidu remembered but he did nothing that portrayed good character and would make me want to look up to him. When I think of hero's they make mistakes but they fix them and learn from them. In don't think Gilgamesh really ever learned a lesson. He gave up on immortality when the snake ate the plant. He gave up because he didn't remember where he got it, not because he learned a lesson. He is still vain in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteIn repsonse to Dan's question:
ReplyDeleteI think that it depends on your view of a hero. Some people view a hero as someone who defeats monsters, is royalty and lives an elaborate and rich life. Other people agree that a hero has to generally help a person or humanity.
I believe that Gilgamesh isn't a hero. I believe a hero is a person that helps others or does things that benefit others. Gilgamesh doesn't really help anyone, even when he slays the monsters. He kills the Bull because he had to. Even thought the Bull was hurting others, I believe that Gilgamesh was more interested in saving his own life, even over Enkidu.
I absolutely don't think people "milk" a death of someone to benefit themselves. I have lost many close family members in the past few years. I have never used my family's death to my advantage. It's almost embarrassing having people know about my family's history because it's what people remember me for. In elementary school, everyone tried to baby me when my mom died. Then years later in the beginning of high school, I would say hi to people I hadn't seen since 5th grade. Most didn't remember me until they realized I was the girl with one parent. It's not fun and I don't understand how people could do that. Try to benefit off of a death. I think most people who have come in contact with a close death will tell you it's not fun and couldn't even consider using death as an excuse.
ReplyDeleteI think that some people do use the death of others as an excuse to get what they want. In fact I think that people use any bad situation as an excuse to get attention or other things that we want. Everyday we see situations like this plastered all over our televisions and newspapers of how people take advantage of a bad situation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with moritz's question but only to an extent. I think that some people do us death as a catalyst to gain something but i think it is more commonly used by some older people or someone a generation above our own as a way to almost guilt a younger individual into doing something.
ReplyDeleteKristen: I think that Gilgamesh has many characteristics that define a hero. He is royalty, he is strong and brave and he is a leader. He is also proud and stubborn, these are usually highly revered in heroes because without these qualities they would not be heroes. It is how these heroes use their traits that determine how they are viewed. If Gilgamesh were a modern day hero, he would be revered and lionized to us and we would ignore his faults, for better or worse because we would need him to be a hero weather or not he really was one.
ReplyDeleteThink of today's heroes. Can you find one that isn't selfish in any sense?
ReplyDeleteTo Daniel-
ReplyDeleteI think that Rama is a hero. He suffers from loosing Sita and goes to save her. He puts her first instead of himself. I don't think anyone can ever be a perfect hero because in reality they are people. No one is perfect. But Rama put Sita first. He went on his journey to save her and make the world a better place. In the end he did get something he wanted(Sita) but his misson was to save her. Gilgamesh goes on his journey for his own personal wants.
Adding the Kristen's questions...are "today's heros" really hero's if they have self intentions?
ReplyDeleteAnswering Moritz's question, I do think that people use death to get things that they want in life. I think that we don't like to think that people would actually do this and we believe them to have good morals and know the difference between what's right and wrong but there are people out there that aren't really who they say they are. People will do almost anything to help themselves out in life and I think that using death as a way to get what you want is a really twisted way to do it.
ReplyDeleteKaytlin, I agree that people will use death as a way of getting attention or gaining sympathy. However, I don’t think this is always used in a bad way. For example, if someone is killed through drunk driving, people will use the attention this death will get as a way of warning people about its dangers and hopefully prevent future accidents. My point being, death will always be an attention getter because of the importance or society puts on it. It is the decision of people for how we view death and how we use it.
ReplyDelete@Danielle T.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. I have gone through points where I didn't want people to know someone had died because to me sympathy in large amount can almost delay the process of moving on because it forces you to bring back memories that you dont wnat to forget but more repress.
To what level of selfishness will we allow OUR hero's to have. Even Superman saves lives to gain fulfillment in his own.
ReplyDeleteHumans are greedy, selfish and overall imperfect creatures. People use other people, situations and actions all for their own advantage. It's basic human nature to beat out the other person; to survive. Not everyone does something like use a loved one's death for their own gain but there are such people out there. There are even worse things that are done by people for their own gain. People are overall seen as a destructive force. A select few of the entire race look back and feel guilt for what has been done and then it is tried to fix. Then there is a select few that are seeing the bad before it happens and trying to change it. It is our nature to destroy and build more for our reputations and lives. It doesnt matter who is in our way, even those select few people looking for good, we will get to the top and do it with what ever means necessecary.
ReplyDelete@Kristen
ReplyDeleteI hate to bring up a fictional hero but Superman?
I would say Gilgamesh is a tragic hero. I think the great thing he did was proove that people can change. He used to take advantage of women, and after he met Enkidu he put more effort into killing the evil. Maybe this was so he would appear heroic and become a true hero, but it was also helping he people. His flaw, as many have said, was that he was self centered. This affected a lot of what he did, but through trying to better himself, he helped others as well. He showed Gilgamesh a whole new life and made friends with him. He is not the typical "Hercules" hero, that puts everyone else before himself and is very likeable. However, he is the hero that wants to become the best he can be.
ReplyDeleteI dont think that Gilgamesh is a tragic hero. He does have some of the traits of a tragic hero, but he does not follow the plot of a tragic hero. I can see that you could argue that Enkidu was his flaw, but Gilgamesh never listened to him and never seemed to appreciate him that much untill he died, he mourns, but he is very selfish about the whole thing. He does not really fall, and he never really redeems himself, as well as never realizing what he did wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that many people use the death of others to get ahead in their own life, but I think that sometimes people can use their own immortality to their advantage. When the question was asked I thought more about stories of people who are told that they only have say three months to live. A lot of times people use that as a motive to finally do everything that they wanted to do in life and I don't really like that idea. I think it is sad that people have to wait for death to do what they want. I also think that sometimes when a time limit is put on a life it is used to live in excessive ways which I also don't understand. There is nothing wrong with living simply and I think there is something to look forward to after death.
ReplyDeleteI do not see Gilgamesh as a hero because he really did not save or help anone but himself. I believe his purpose for going on the journey was more for personal gain rather than to benefit others. He started the journey very carefree just wanting to kill Humbaba becasue he thought he could rather than becasue he should to make the forest safe for all the animals and people living there.
ReplyDeleteHe also did not look out for Enkidu and his wants because he did not even want to go on the journey to begin with.
Kristen
ReplyDeleteI can think of many modern heros that aren't selfish. The firefighters, police men and women, and all other people that ran into the buildings on September 11 were by no means selfish. Sure they had the right to protect themselves and get out before the buildings went down, but very few of them did. Many of them forgot about their own lives in order to save the lives of others.