Obviously the gods don't have the same values as we do, Ea technically killed his grandfather, apsu. And I agree with Brian, it is extreme for apsu to immediately want to kill his children.
I agree that marduk is acting out of self defense, He and his little buddies are being attacked, and therefore in order to preserve life he has to kill the mother figure of his creation. Though I do think he took advantage of the situation in taking so much power that he became that supreme.
I think Tiamat is more personally effected by the winds that Anu created. Also, I think Kingu manipulates Tiamat in her already disturbed state into turning against her children.
Why would any parent cause a war against their children and fight in order to kill????
I agree with Brian, I think it's rediulous that the Gods got mad at the other Gods because they were making too much noice. Their way of thinking is a little insane. I don't think it's moral for anyone to go kill someone because their mad at them. It's just too extreme and seems unecessary. Their actions caused life and death situations, and I think they were taking advantage of the power they had. If everyone had the power and instinct to do that today, where would our society be?
I agree with Brian. I believe it's ridiculous that such a parent like Aspu wanted to kill their kids. They were probably the reason for all the mayhem.
I agree it's very over-exaggerated and said earlier not sure by who, but they said it's almost always a life or death thing. But I guess it makes the story.
I don't think it's right that the family wasn't close. Families are suppose to stick together, and be there for each other. I think all of the Gods were stuck up in a way because they only cared about their power and where they stood in the society. Families are suppose to support each other, not fight each other.
In response to Eric, I'm not sure if this story promotes disrespect towards your elders, but their culture is everybody for themselves, there is no loyalty.
PhillipKrell, while I agree that Marduk acts initially out of self-defense, I don't think that fact excuses the brutality with which he takes action against Taimat and the others, some of whom are innocent to at least some degree.
I think that Tiamat becomes angry at Ea because Ea was disrespectful to Apsu. Even after killing him, Ea created his dwelling over Apsu and the waters Apsu ruled. This is extremely disrespectful because Ea and Apsu are related, and Ea should at least be honorable to his elders. Apsu's plan may have been evil but I believe Tiamat was angered by Ea's treatment of Apsu when he killed him.
I think Trent has a good point. These gods are imperfect and they created an imperfect world. I think that it represents the differences between generations. Think of how different we are from our parents' generations. They think that we are "spoiled" because we have cell phones, internet, and iPods. But, isn't it just a change in society. Maybe the younger gods were in the change of society just how we are. Humans have just become more understanding because our parents aren't going to kill us if they don't understand why our teenage lives are so different than how theirs were... The gods took it to the extreme and did not try to think from a new perspective.
In response to what Kristen said in the inner circle, what does this story say us about human beings. If this story has endured for years, what should we take from it?
Erik: I don't believe that it supports disrespect, instead I feel it shows the consequences when you act selfishly following your own interests for personal gain instead of respecting one another’s feelings and goals. But that is more a modern day way to look at it. Going back to the time this was written I believe that this hatred and disrespect for your family was more typical because they way there society was run.
Marduk has this immoral side, because he did not respect his elder, and he did not realize that Tiamat ahd anything to do with his creation. That idea did not even dawn on me that he would need to respect her for that reason, but I think it is a good point.
Reactionary society: everything is life or death, I totally see that in the story! If someone does something wrong, they are going to be killed. Sarah said they trust people, I don't think they trusted anyone at all. They did not give other punishments before, just went straight to killing.
Royalty among family members: why do they alwasy sacrifice the children? When they could not kill Tiamat, they sent their children after him. That is interesting to me; I too asked why the revenge is so great and how Ea could just take power from the Gods and make himself the highest. In Ramayana, that would not be possible.
Yes i think this story promotes disrespect. I don't think that it is entierly on purpose however. Throughout the story, the gods children anger the parents and the parents even plan on killing their kids. I believe that even the gods should repect their elders and this story doesn't show that especially when the kids eventually end up killing their elders.
I think that the gods are more like humans because in a sense this makes them more powerful. By having them deal with day to day problems, it shows how powerful they actually are.
How is all this such a pessimistic of their world or culture? I'm not sure how it came about, is it because of the extremes of the climate? Like for instance it's a river basin of two rivers and then outside of that there's a desert, hot, hot, HOT! Then the rains come later flooding everything, is this why it's so....weird so to speak?
I also think that it was interesting what Dani said in the inner circle about humans being more like gods. But do the gods act more like humans? Or do humans try to act like them?
Well what I took from this, is a really interesting way that the earth was created. "Half of Tiamat he set up as the sky; the other half he formed the earth."
I don't think the Gods set a good example to human beings. Their way of solving problems is by destroying anything that gets in their way or disagrees with them. If the gods are trying to get the humans to worship them, it's not the correct way to do it. Gods should be worshiped for the good things they contribute to the world. Being seen as slaves to the Gods is disrespectful and it hurts to look at things in that point of view.
mmoritz, I personally don't think that the story has much meaning for modern humans. Contemporary religions paint a different image of humanity. What I find more interesting is what it says about the Sumerian and Babylonian cultures. I think the story provides strong evidence that it was a society fascinated by conflict. I also think that the story gives evidence of a strong hierarchy within Babylonian society and that the Sumerians perceived the gods as taking an active role in human life.
OK--this is going to stretch your thinking a little, but do you think the story uses archetypes of earth and humans as creations of the gods themselves and earth itself as a place for praising of gods?
Hannah just said: A culture that is bound to fail. I think that is a very interesting statement, because it completely reflects the fact that it is the first civilization we know! They are learning one step at a time to make civilization more...civilized, and then in the process are creating the morals we have today. Once people realized that killing was wrong (in other places and years after mesopotamia), we could look back on this time and realize how crazy and unorganized society was when one god could just decide to be the supreme. We have changed so much since then! No one will follow some random leader who declares themself unless they have proper background and such.
I don't like how Tiamat was split into different parts like the sky and the earth. It's weird to think that different parts of her body are down here on earth, especially if she is supposedly evil. Why would we want any evil part of her down here on this planet?
Mrs. Moritz: I think that this story has endured for years because it teaches us to get along and be accepting of the differences between generations and people in general. I saw the story almost satirizing the authors’ society. He saw how silly it was to turn on each other for minor differences and annoyances. I also thought it was trying to show how easily persuaded humans are- for example the gods seem to choose a side without even thinking. I think it also showed that humans value the man as ruler.
Going off of Brian’s comment, maybe the gods are happy to make Marduk a supreme god because in doing this he will make the human race, and the sole purpose of humans was to serve the gods. the regular gods are glad to have a race of people all serving them. Referring to 'man' "his job will be to serve the gods so that they may rest at ease."
I feel like for one god to be supreme god is too much power for one being, and they could take advantage of it. Even though he brings order and "life emerged from dead matter", if Marduk wants to change the world for his own personal gain, it would be too easy.
I think the humans act more like god, since were made in one of the gods image. It's similar in like Judaism and Christianity, even Islam. That being said, it reflects how we have flaws/emotions to a degree. But where did those flaws from the gods or in the gods come from?
I agree with Rachel. It is really strange to think Tiamat's evil body created the earth. But then again it is interesting that the actual structure of earth is evil, but not all the people who dwell in it are evil.
I think, well...that you could say that. Earth could be like a massive temple of worship. Never thought of it that way. But yes, if it's built and we(Generally) are made for praise of them, since they are gods! They can do whatever and it's not wrong..per se
I think that the gods are very powerful but i agree with trent that the humans are just trying to become that powerful like gods. I agree that humans act more like gods. Gods don't try to lower themselves to be like humans. I think its symbolic that the two "weaker" gods that are in this story are on Earth becuase it just shows that any god is powerful enough to destroy or do whatever they want to humans.
I feel like the Babylonians that wrote this story were trying to find a scapegoat. Obviously the people living in Mesopotamia believed that these gods existed. However like other poeple posted, based on this story, the gods weren't a good example for the humans. Chances are that humans would become greedy and disrepectful just like the gods. Humans who wrote this story may have recognized this and blamed the gods.
To Moritz's question about what the story says about human beings: Could this be the underlying idea in all of our minds, to be greedy and kill to get our way, or have we evolved with morals after starting to feel compassion? I don't see any compassion in the story, whether it be between parents and children or even parents in wives. No one even has much compassion for the highest gods; I didn't see any anyway. I think that is interesting with these stories about creation: no where has compassion been an essential part of creating the earth...so how have we developed it?
Since this takes place in a desert, i feel that snakes are made as evil, how it dwells in the sand dunes. Most snap at you, and well the sidewinder, those are pretty deadly with their poison. So that maybe the first venomous creature they encountered so they antagonized it.
I think that that they do use Earth as a place to worship the gods becuase that symbolizes the gods being higher up than humans. HUmans like to have something to look forward to and looking forward to the gods make there life better. Humans want to think that there will always be something to look forward to and worshipping the gods will in some peoples mind do that for them.
cbeck: I think that depends on how you read that specific line, "Tiamat lost her senses". When I read the story, I simply took it to mean that she essentially acted without thinking. She engaged Marduk in a battle she couldn't hope to win and paid the consequences. I'm sure there are other interpretations though.
On the one hand, yes they could because to me the gods seem very self centered. From what we have read, everything the gods have done was to gain power and one up the next god. On the other hand, it doesn't seem possible to me because as much as the gods seem to hate the humans, they are kind of trying to make them stronger able to survive through anything.
@cbeck and tony: another interpretation would be that Tiamat actually lost her senses due to Marduk's magical powers. This would render her incapible of fighting back at her full potential.
I agree with Danielle, there is a similarity between Soorpanaka and Kingu is they both had the power to get people to act on their actions. Kingu was able to convince Tiamat to attack her own children. Kingu had the power to pursuade her to actually fight in order to kill her own children. In the Ramayana, Soorpanaka had the power to get Ravana to start a battle against Rama. Soorpanaka twisted her words around, and pursuaded Ravana by using her needs and turned them into his. Both Kingu and Soorpanka are very persuasive, and had the power to put their needs in front of others by changing their words around.
Marduk and Ramana versus Tiamat and Rama - trying to avenge their friends, Rama is a better and more respectful fighter, but both T and Rama use their powers from nature to defeat other gods. Marduk and Ramana and having a greedy basis for killing, and are not respectable fighters - they take advantage of their prey and are ruthless.
well, about compassion as none is seen it does it mean that isn't there? Journalism teaches there is no news like bad news, so it's a conflict that must drive a story. If there is none..what the point of them prancing all around like ponies??? But compassion I think from even the ancient mesopotamian views, is still a divine 'gift' since they did create everything....but then again as a different culture, they could believe that human emotions have evolved.
I don’t consider Tiamat as entirely evil. I think it is similar to Ravana in Ramayana. Ravana was at first a great god but lost sight of good and became a tyrant. Just before he dies he redeems himself. I think that Tiamat started as "mother Tiamata personified and ruled the salt waters", this is a very similar rule to Mother Nature. She seems to have gone bad because she is trying to kill her son but after her death I think she is redeemed. Her tears formed the Tigris and Euphrates rivers which were essential to the cultures of the time. It can also show that those two rivers helped and hurt their society a lot. Floods would kill crops but also provided water for crops.
Do you think humans have formed compassion through viewing mistakes of others? Not only does this apply to the case with the gods in this story, but in the past, if someone wanted something, there was no or little compromise. They would have wars and conquer countries only for power. Yes, some of this is still going on today. But if you see something you want now, you work for it or compromise to get it, usually not violently.
Kylie made a very good point. How can a society be maded off of hate and anger, with out any compassion and love? A society can't be heading in a good direction if the values the society was made off of were not the right intentions. Marduk's intentions were to have human beings as his slaves, and to have just one more person to worship him. This reminds me of Egypt, how their was one ruler, and he controled the society based on his needs and his wants. Most of the people were slaves and didn't have a say in the society.
I think animals that are not pet-able (if thats a word) people do not like. Snakes, spiders, things of that nature...are not very cuddly and cute. Where as puppys, cats, people understand and like. Those animals are always the good animals
Rach L- In response to your previous comment. The fact that they can manipulate others into doing what they want, is that really a power? Or can it be seen as a weakness? Because they aren’t brave enough to go and do it themselves.
I agree that Marduk has an immoral side, but not for the same reasons. I think that he has a false sense of power. Or better said, that he lets his power get the best of him. He will do anything to keep his power, even if that means fighting and killing his children.
I agree with the people who said the gods do not set good role models, specifically Rach L. They do not teach morals or ethics, instead they teach selfishness and greed.
The comments about a culture being set up to fail really interests me. This culture was made up of extreme chaos, killing, brutality, and no morals at all. Yet, somehow, the society existed for sometime, and became known as the first culture ever. I agree with Kylie as she says that each culture learns something from the previous one, and that is why this culture was so important and had such significance. It helped all the cultures following become what they were, and taught them what to do or what not to do. Even today, we can look at other cultures and build our own based off of those. That is why this first culture is so important and has such a big impact.
It looks like the basis of this conversation, both on the inner and outer circles ended up being about human nature, compassion, and the culture in general. Did these gods/people have any compassion at all? Did they care about anyone but themselves? And did they think at all about their consequences of their actions, not only for themselves but also for the rest of their culture?
I agree with chelsea. I think that Marduk knows how amazing he is or he thinks that he is that amazing. I don't think he was really fighting Tiamat just for the better and saftey of the gods. I think he wants to prove his power and take the final step to make him the best of the best. Defeating Tiamat would be a huge ego boost for him.
I don't think these gods had any compassion. They wanted things to best suit them and anything or anyone that came in the way could simply be disposed of and forgotten even if the god's who came in their way was parents or siblings.
vroom!
ReplyDeleteWhy does Tiamat become filled with hatred if she knew that Aspu's plan was "evil"? Didn't Ea just prevent that from happening?
ReplyDeleteObviously the gods don't have the same values as we do, Ea technically killed his grandfather, apsu. And I agree with Brian, it is extreme for apsu to immediately want to kill his children.
ReplyDeleteAnother questions, just addressing overall; How are they like humans (imperfect) if they are gods that rule and created everything?
ReplyDeleteI agree that marduk is acting out of self defense, He and his little buddies are being attacked, and therefore in order to preserve life he has to kill the mother figure of his creation. Though I do think he took advantage of the situation in taking so much power that he became that supreme.
ReplyDeleteDoes the story support disrespect for your elders?
ReplyDelete@cbeck
ReplyDeleteI think Tiamat is more personally effected by the winds that Anu created. Also, I think Kingu manipulates Tiamat in her already disturbed state into turning against her children.
Why would any parent cause a war against their children and fight in order to kill????
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brian, I think it's rediulous that the Gods got mad at the other Gods because they were making too much noice. Their way of thinking is a little insane. I don't think it's moral for anyone to go kill someone because their mad at them. It's just too extreme and seems unecessary. Their actions caused life and death situations, and I think they were taking advantage of the power they had. If everyone had the power and instinct to do that today, where would our society be?
I agree with Brian. I believe it's ridiculous that such a parent like Aspu wanted to kill their kids. They were probably the reason for all the mayhem.
ReplyDeleteI agree it's very over-exaggerated and said earlier not sure by who, but they said it's almost always a life or death thing. But I guess it makes the story.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's right that the family wasn't close. Families are suppose to stick together, and be there for each other. I think all of the Gods were stuck up in a way because they only cared about their power and where they stood in the society. Families are suppose to support each other, not fight each other.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Eric, I'm not sure if this story promotes disrespect towards your elders, but their culture is everybody for themselves, there is no loyalty.
ReplyDeletePhillipKrell, while I agree that Marduk acts initially out of self-defense, I don't think that fact excuses the brutality with which he takes action against Taimat and the others, some of whom are innocent to at least some degree.
ReplyDeleteKingu lead the other gods to rebel. this could show that it is deep in human nature to rebel against what he don't agrea with.
ReplyDeleteI think that Tiamat becomes angry at Ea because Ea was disrespectful to Apsu. Even after killing him, Ea created his dwelling over Apsu and the waters Apsu ruled. This is extremely disrespectful because Ea and Apsu are related, and Ea should at least be honorable to his elders. Apsu's plan may have been evil but I believe Tiamat was angered by Ea's treatment of Apsu when he killed him.
ReplyDeleteI think Trent has a good point. These gods are imperfect and they created an imperfect world. I think that it represents the differences between generations. Think of how different we are from our parents' generations. They think that we are "spoiled" because we have cell phones, internet, and iPods. But, isn't it just a change in society. Maybe the younger gods were in the change of society just how we are. Humans have just become more understanding because our parents aren't going to kill us if they don't understand why our teenage lives are so different than how theirs were... The gods took it to the extreme and did not try to think from a new perspective.
ReplyDeleteIn response to what Kristen said in the inner circle, what does this story say us about human beings. If this story has endured for years, what should we take from it?
ReplyDelete@ tony_j
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Erik:
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that it supports disrespect, instead I feel it shows the consequences when you act selfishly following your own interests for personal gain instead of respecting one another’s feelings and goals. But that is more a modern day way to look at it. Going back to the time this was written I believe that this hatred and disrespect for your family was more typical because they way there society was run.
Marduk has this immoral side, because he did not respect his elder, and he did not realize that Tiamat ahd anything to do with his creation. That idea did not even dawn on me that he would need to respect her for that reason, but I think it is a good point.
ReplyDeleteReactionary society: everything is life or death, I totally see that in the story! If someone does something wrong, they are going to be killed. Sarah said they trust people, I don't think they trusted anyone at all. They did not give other punishments before, just went straight to killing.
Royalty among family members: why do they alwasy sacrifice the children? When they could not kill Tiamat, they sent their children after him. That is interesting to me; I too asked why the revenge is so great and how Ea could just take power from the Gods and make himself the highest. In Ramayana, that would not be possible.
@Erik
ReplyDeleteYes i think this story promotes disrespect. I don't think that it is entierly on purpose however. Throughout the story, the gods children anger the parents and the parents even plan on killing their kids. I believe that even the gods should repect their elders and this story doesn't show that especially when the kids eventually end up killing their elders.
I think that the gods are more like humans because in a sense this makes them more powerful. By having them deal with day to day problems, it shows how powerful they actually are.
ReplyDeleteHow is all this such a pessimistic of their world or culture? I'm not sure how it came about, is it because of the extremes of the climate? Like for instance it's a river basin of two rivers and then outside of that there's a desert, hot, hot, HOT! Then the rains come later flooding everything, is this why it's so....weird so to speak?
ReplyDeleteI also think that it was interesting what Dani said in the inner circle about humans being more like gods. But do the gods act more like humans? Or do humans try to act like them?
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mrs. Moritz's question:
ReplyDeleteWell what I took from this, is a really interesting way that the earth was created. "Half of Tiamat he set up as the sky; the other half he formed the earth."
I don't think the Gods set a good example to human beings. Their way of solving problems is by destroying anything that gets in their way or disagrees with them. If the gods are trying to get the humans to worship them, it's not the correct way to do it. Gods should be worshiped for the good things they contribute to the world. Being seen as slaves to the Gods is disrespectful and it hurts to look at things in that point of view.
ReplyDeletemmoritz, I personally don't think that the story has much meaning for modern humans. Contemporary religions paint a different image of humanity. What I find more interesting is what it says about the Sumerian and Babylonian cultures. I think the story provides strong evidence that it was a society fascinated by conflict. I also think that the story gives evidence of a strong hierarchy within Babylonian society and that the Sumerians perceived the gods as taking an active role in human life.
ReplyDeleteOK--this is going to stretch your thinking a little, but do you think the story uses archetypes of earth and humans as creations of the gods themselves and earth itself as a place for praising of gods?
ReplyDeleteHannah just said: A culture that is bound to fail. I think that is a very interesting statement, because it completely reflects the fact that it is the first civilization we know! They are learning one step at a time to make civilization more...civilized, and then in the process are creating the morals we have today. Once people realized that killing was wrong (in other places and years after mesopotamia), we could look back on this time and realize how crazy and unorganized society was when one god could just decide to be the supreme. We have changed so much since then! No one will follow some random leader who declares themself unless they have proper background and such.
ReplyDeleteI don't like how Tiamat was split into different parts like the sky and the earth. It's weird to think that different parts of her body are down here on earth, especially if she is supposedly evil. Why would we want any evil part of her down here on this planet?
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz:
ReplyDeleteI think that this story has endured for years because it teaches us to get along and be accepting of the differences between generations and people in general. I saw the story almost satirizing the authors’ society. He saw how silly it was to turn on each other for minor differences and annoyances. I also thought it was trying to show how easily persuaded humans are- for example the gods seem to choose a side without even thinking. I think it also showed that humans value the man as ruler.
Going off of Brian’s comment, maybe the gods are happy to make Marduk a supreme god because in doing this he will make the human race, and the sole purpose of humans was to serve the gods. the regular gods are glad to have a race of people all serving them. Referring to 'man' "his job will be to serve the gods so that they may rest at ease."
ReplyDeleteI feel like for one god to be supreme god is too much power for one being, and they could take advantage of it. Even though he brings order and "life emerged from dead matter", if Marduk wants to change the world for his own personal gain, it would be too easy.
ReplyDelete@ kayltinr
ReplyDeleteI think the humans act more like god, since were made in one of the gods image. It's similar in like Judaism and Christianity, even Islam. That being said, it reflects how we have flaws/emotions to a degree. But where did those flaws from the gods or in the gods come from?
Why do they experience such a large change of heart towards the kids?
ReplyDeleteSHustis: In that case do view the traditional Judeo-Christian God as too powerful? If not, why do you make that distinction.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rachel. It is really strange to think Tiamat's evil body created the earth. But then again it is interesting that the actual structure of earth is evil, but not all the people who dwell in it are evil.
ReplyDelete@ mrs moritz
ReplyDeleteI think, well...that you could say that. Earth could be like a massive temple of worship. Never thought of it that way. But yes, if it's built and we(Generally) are made for praise of them, since they are gods! They can do whatever and it's not wrong..per se
I think that the gods are very powerful but i agree with trent that the humans are just trying to become that powerful like gods. I agree that humans act more like gods. Gods don't try to lower themselves to be like humans. I think its symbolic that the two "weaker" gods that are in this story are on Earth becuase it just shows that any god is powerful enough to destroy or do whatever they want to humans.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the Babylonians that wrote this story were trying to find a scapegoat. Obviously the people living in Mesopotamia believed that these gods existed. However like other poeple posted, based on this story, the gods weren't a good example for the humans. Chances are that humans would become greedy and disrepectful just like the gods. Humans who wrote this story may have recognized this and blamed the gods.
ReplyDeleteTo Moritz's question about what the story says about human beings: Could this be the underlying idea in all of our minds, to be greedy and kill to get our way, or have we evolved with morals after starting to feel compassion? I don't see any compassion in the story, whether it be between parents and children or even parents in wives. No one even has much compassion for the highest gods; I didn't see any anyway. I think that is interesting with these stories about creation: no where has compassion been an essential part of creating the earth...so how have we developed it?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Tiamat lose her senses when Marduk yells at her? This is a good one for you, Tony.
ReplyDeleteSince this takes place in a desert, i feel that snakes are made as evil, how it dwells in the sand dunes. Most snap at you, and well the sidewinder, those are pretty deadly with their poison. So that maybe the first venomous creature they encountered so they antagonized it.
ReplyDeleteI think that that they do use Earth as a place to worship the gods becuase that symbolizes the gods being higher up than humans. HUmans like to have something to look forward to and looking forward to the gods make there life better. Humans want to think that there will always be something to look forward to and worshipping the gods will in some peoples mind do that for them.
ReplyDeletecbeck: I think that depends on how you read that specific line, "Tiamat lost her senses". When I read the story, I simply took it to mean that she essentially acted without thinking. She engaged Marduk in a battle she couldn't hope to win and paid the consequences. I'm sure there are other interpretations though.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Soorpanaka and Kingu have a lot in relation. They were very good at enticing other people
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz-
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, yes they could because to me the gods seem very self centered. From what we have read, everything the gods have done was to gain power and one up the next god. On the other hand, it doesn't seem possible to me because as much as the gods seem to hate the humans, they are kind of trying to make them stronger able to survive through anything.
@cbeck and tony:
ReplyDeleteanother interpretation would be that Tiamat actually lost her senses due to Marduk's magical powers. This would render her incapible of fighting back at her full potential.
I agree with Danielle, there is a similarity between Soorpanaka and Kingu is they both had the power to get people to act on their actions. Kingu was able to convince Tiamat to attack her own children. Kingu had the power to pursuade her to actually fight in order to kill her own children. In the Ramayana, Soorpanaka had the power to get Ravana to start a battle against Rama. Soorpanaka twisted her words around, and pursuaded Ravana by using her needs and turned them into his. Both Kingu and Soorpanka are very persuasive, and had the power to put their needs in front of others by changing their words around.
ReplyDeleteMarduk and Ramana versus Tiamat and Rama - trying to avenge their friends, Rama is a better and more respectful fighter, but both T and Rama use their powers from nature to defeat other gods. Marduk and Ramana and having a greedy basis for killing, and are not respectable fighters - they take advantage of their prey and are ruthless.
ReplyDelete@ Kylie
ReplyDeletewell, about compassion as none is seen it does it mean that isn't there? Journalism teaches there is no news like bad news, so it's a conflict that must drive a story. If there is none..what the point of them prancing all around like ponies??? But compassion I think from even the ancient mesopotamian views, is still a divine 'gift' since they did create everything....but then again as a different culture, they could believe that human emotions have evolved.
I don’t consider Tiamat as entirely evil. I think it is similar to Ravana in Ramayana. Ravana was at first a great god but lost sight of good and became a tyrant. Just before he dies he redeems himself. I think that Tiamat started as "mother Tiamata personified and ruled the salt waters", this is a very similar rule to Mother Nature. She seems to have gone bad because she is trying to kill her son but after her death I think she is redeemed. Her tears formed the Tigris and Euphrates rivers which were essential to the cultures of the time. It can also show that those two rivers helped and hurt their society a lot. Floods would kill crops but also provided water for crops.
ReplyDeleteDo you think humans have formed compassion through viewing mistakes of others? Not only does this apply to the case with the gods in this story, but in the past, if someone wanted something, there was no or little compromise. They would have wars and conquer countries only for power. Yes, some of this is still going on today. But if you see something you want now, you work for it or compromise to get it, usually not violently.
ReplyDeleteKylie made a very good point. How can a society be maded off of hate and anger, with out any compassion and love? A society can't be heading in a good direction if the values the society was made off of were not the right intentions. Marduk's intentions were to have human beings as his slaves, and to have just one more person to worship him. This reminds me of Egypt, how their was one ruler, and he controled the society based on his needs and his wants. Most of the people were slaves and didn't have a say in the society.
ReplyDeleteI think animals that are not pet-able (if thats a word) people do not like. Snakes, spiders, things of that nature...are not very cuddly and cute. Where as puppys, cats, people understand and like. Those animals are always the good animals
ReplyDeleteRach L-
ReplyDeleteIn response to your previous comment. The fact that they can manipulate others into doing what they want, is that really a power? Or can it be seen as a weakness? Because they aren’t brave enough to go and do it themselves.
I agree that Marduk has an immoral side, but not for the same reasons. I think that he has a false sense of power. Or better said, that he lets his power get the best of him. He will do anything to keep his power, even if that means fighting and killing his children.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the people who said the gods do not set good role models, specifically Rach L. They do not teach morals or ethics, instead they teach selfishness and greed.
The comments about a culture being set up to fail really interests me. This culture was made up of extreme chaos, killing, brutality, and no morals at all. Yet, somehow, the society existed for sometime, and became known as the first culture ever. I agree with Kylie as she says that each culture learns something from the previous one, and that is why this culture was so important and had such significance. It helped all the cultures following become what they were, and taught them what to do or what not to do. Even today, we can look at other cultures and build our own based off of those. That is why this first culture is so important and has such a big impact.
It looks like the basis of this conversation, both on the inner and outer circles ended up being about human nature, compassion, and the culture in general. Did these gods/people have any compassion at all? Did they care about anyone but themselves? And did they think at all about their consequences of their actions, not only for themselves but also for the rest of their culture?
I agree with chelsea. I think that Marduk knows how amazing he is or he thinks that he is that amazing. I don't think he was really fighting Tiamat just for the better and saftey of the gods. I think he wants to prove his power and take the final step to make him the best of the best. Defeating Tiamat would be a huge ego boost for him.
ReplyDeleteI don't think these gods had any compassion. They wanted things to best suit them and anything or anyone that came in the way could simply be disposed of and forgotten even if the god's who came in their way was parents or siblings.